Episode 23

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Published on:

5th Oct 2026

S6 Ep 20 Communities of Practice with Sharon Ravitch (Recast)

Dr. Sharon M. Ravitch is a Professor of Practice at the University of Pennsylvania's Graduate School of Education - and the person who chaired Preston's dissertation committee. In this conversation, originally released in January 2023, Sharon joins Preston to talk about communities of practice: historically, a craftsman's model (carpenters, ironworkers, silversmiths), and MCTI's model that describes instructor cadres — groups who build shared language and expertise around a particular kind of problem.

Sharon reframes it as hybridized expertise because everyone in the room is already an expert of their own experience. New knowledge gets created when practitioners come together to examine what they do every day — not when it's handed down from the academy.

From there the conversation moves through the significance of connection, reflection as a muscle that atrophies without white space in the curriculum (Viktor Frankl's "space between stimulus and response" comes up), and trading risk rather than mitigating it.

We're posting this Recast now because it's part of the iterative process behind Preston's recent white paper, The Fourth Generation of Military Special Operations Selection & Assessment. Communities of practice is exactly the concept the paper builds on and then pushes past: where a community of practice is organized around a shared subject (psychologists as one community, instructor cadre as another), a community of praxis is what happens when distinct communities, i.e., academics, cadre, and leadership, stop working in parallel and work together toward a common outcome. You can hear Preston and Art Finch talk through that model directly in S6 Ep5.

If you find value in this discussion, the best way to support our work and stay up to date on future episodes is to subscribe and leave us a quick rating or review. It helps us reach more people who need to hear these conversations.

Transcript
Preston:

Welcome to the Teamcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Preston Cline, Director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

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Here, we discuss all things

mission-critical teams.

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These are teams of four to 12 people

indigenously trained and educated to

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solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets, where the consequence of

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failure is death or catastrophic loss.

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With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

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zones to emergency rooms, dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

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and sustainability of these teams.

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We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

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language and frameworks to transfer

critical, often unspoken, knowledge.

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Whether you're on a mission-critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

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the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

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you to perform when it matters most.

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Thank you for joining us, and

hope you enjoy the Teamcast

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Welcome back to the Teamcast, everyone.

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I am joined today by my good friend,

colleague, and mentor for many years, Dr.

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Sharon Ravitch.

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Sharon, welcome to the Teamcast.

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Sharon: thank you, Dr.

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Preston Cline.

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It is a delight to be here,

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Preston: so the audience should

know that the reason she said Dr.

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Preston Cline is because she was the chair

of my dissertation committee, and actually

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was the one who anointed me doctor.

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So she's one of the few people that

get to say that and with all the

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credibility that she, she muster.

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With

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Sharon: all due humility.

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With

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Preston: all due humility.

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With all due

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Sharon: humility.

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Preston: So for our audience

members, Sharon is also a professor

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of practice at the University of

Pennsylvania Graduate School of

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Education, and currently a Fulbright

Fellow, which is very impressive.

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She has gotten her master's from

Harvard, where we first met years

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ago, and then a doctorate from

Penn, where she continues to work.

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She is, and I won't go through her

lengthy resume, but I will say that she

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is a person of record that a number of

countries around the world, when they

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re- need to rethink about how they're

doing their entire educational system,

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Sharon is one of the people they call.

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Case in point, she and I spent an amazing

few days in Haiti after the earthquake

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a number of years ago, looking at how

to move folks from poverty to sort of

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microeconomies and how we can change

the educational system there to do that.

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And I know that you do that in

a number of countries, and I was

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trying to remember them all, but I

know India, but I what are the other

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countries that you're working in?

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Sharon: Well, I've Worked for the

past 12-plus years in Nicaragua.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Sharon: So that's one

of the key countries.

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And I worked, as you said, and

we worked together in Haiti.

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I've worked in Kazakhstan, and

in India, in Pakistan, in Israel,

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Preston: one of the reasons that I

was really excited to have you on the

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show today, and one of the things that

you're internationally famous for is

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thinking about kinds of practitioner

inquiry or collaborative inquiry

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with their communities of practice.

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What that means is, is that instead of

going to a population and studying them

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with a lab coat and notebook, you're

engaging with them on their kinds of

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problems as a community of practice.

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A community of practice historically

is like, think about a group

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of craftsmen like carpenter or

ironworkers or silversmiths, right?

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Historically, that's

where that comes from.

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And in mission critical teams,

our instructor cadres, the folks

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that are developing the next

generation, are technically speaking

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from an academic point of view, a

group of communities of practice.

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And so how we work with them, how we

think about that really matters because

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what we wanna do is make sure that their

voice is both heard but also valid.

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So we're, we're both trying to

amplify their voice, but our role is

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also to say, "Is that really true?"

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Like, just because your, your forefather

told it to you, is that still true?

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Is that really true?

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And so we're both the advocate, but

we're also a little bit of the critic.

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And critic is the wrong word,

but, like, trusted partner to

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engage in the truth of things.

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And I, I want to say that out loud to

you, Sharon, and just see if you had

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any reactions or additions to that

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Sharon: Sure.

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I mean, there's so many angles.

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This notion of communities of

practice with community and

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practice centralized, right?

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People who are coming together

with a shared maybe goal set, but

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definitely commitment set, right?

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We are committed to thinking

about the same kinds of things

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to move our practice forward.

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And to me, that's the power

of communities of practice.

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I believe in that model.

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It's a great community mobilization model,

and you don't need people from the outside

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to come in to activate that, right?

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It's inside expertise.

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Everyone is an expert of their own

experience, and what that really

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means is we need hybridized knowledge.

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And so what you're talking about really

from my language, my angle, you know, is

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about hybridizing expertise, expertise

more broadly defined, and, and how new

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knowledge is created by that, right?

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New knowledge is created when

practitioners come together

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to really learn together about

what it is they do every day.

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And so, you know, academics love to

put lots of words on this, but really

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it's the power of the process that

is why this stuff is so powerful.

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People really coming together to

move the dial on what they and their

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contemporaries do in ways that help

humanize, and I think that's part of it.

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Well, and it can be whatever your goal is.

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I think one of your goals, Preston,

is, you know, people understanding,

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humanizing themselves, humanizing each

other to prepare each other for the very

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difficult work of mission critical teams.

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Preston: When we do our summits,

and another one, we're just about to

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do one in Australia in a few weeks.

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One of the things that's

interesting about that is that we

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bring together very diverse sets

of, of communities of practice.

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So people from fire, medicine,

NASA, Special Operations.

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And what's, what's always shocking

to people that have never been to it

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is how much they have in common with

the other folks in that group- Mm-hmm

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simply because so much of their

lived experience, their day-to-day

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experience of developing people

for those environments is similar.

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Whether you're developing people to

run into a fire or run into a trauma

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surgeon, many of the same things exist.

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Sharon: yeah.

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Preston: that group of people that

come together with this, this very

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deeply and intimate shared experience.

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And she pointed out that communitas is

that historically, but the anthropologists

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mean it as the feeling that you have.

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Right.

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So they describe it not as a group, but

as a feeling, and that gets back to what

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you were just saying, which is these

things are not just academic, they're

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also embodied in the way we are human.

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Sharon: Absolutely.

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In fact, the embodiment,

the feelings are the point.

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Preston: Right.

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Sharon: Right?

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Preston: And that's, you know, one of

the things when we wrote the residue

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paper, those feelings are so strong,

and so when you leave it, you think

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you're just transitioning, but You don't

realize it's in the ether, it's in the

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woods, you don't see it, but you're

also leaving a very intimate community.

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And in the back of your head, you're

just like, "Oh, they'll just come

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with me," but they don't, and you

suddenly find yourself very isolated.

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And so we are often saying to people,

"Look, you've gotta have purpose

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when you leave, but you also have

to find connection and belonging

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somewhere in a deep, deep way."

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Sharon: We've Seen across fields,

certainly in the field of education

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and in the field of counseling and

psychology, connection is everything.

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It's the special sauce, you know?

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It's really what people need to be

able to take up the hard work- For

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sure … that we take up in our lives.

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Yeah.

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You know, the connection is what,

as you said, it gives us the

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meaning, it gives us the purpose.

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It gives us the energy to continue when,

when our jobs are difficult, you know?

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And I think that Western societies

have done this thing where emotion

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and connection were minimized,

and I think one of the gifts of

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the pandemic, if I may say it that

way, even with all the devastation-

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Preston: Yep

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… Sharon: is in fact that we got to

remember ourselves experientially

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that the connection is the point.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Sharon: When we got to slow down,

when we had that interruption in our,

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you know, regular flow, we really

got to see as a society that these

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connections, they, they matter, they're

foundational, and they're also catalytic

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to whatever change we're hoping to enact.

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Preston: And we're often talking to folks

who, you know, the nurse that's sitting in

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the break room staring at her shoes or the

guy that's taking off his boots, right,

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and hasn't slept in a couple of days.

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And you're staring at your feet and

you're thinking, "I don't know, man.

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I just don't know if I

can keep doing this."

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And it's often the hand on the shoulder

from a nearby friend, right, and a

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member of the community being like,

"Hey, let's get back to work," right?

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"We can do this."

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That's the energy to continue

because if left to your own devices,

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you might look around and go,

"What is go- what am I doing?"

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Sharon: Right.

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I mean, honestly, and yes, I'm

about to quote Bob Dylan, right?

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"The most dangerous road I've been down

is the road of my own mind," right.

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and so that's where that hand on the

shoulder is actually a physical and

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emotional and relational reminder

you're not in this journey alone.

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Preston: Right.

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Sharon: I'm also in my own

version of your journey.

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We're in this together.

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Preston: Yep.

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Sharon: And you know, what that does,

even to our nervous system, let alone

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our emotional and psychological realm,

but to our nervous system, right, is

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it's, it helps us to settle in, right?

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It helps us when something happens to-

Not just take the blow as an individual,

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but to understand that there are people

who will stand with us, who do stand

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with us literally and metaphorically,

who take those blows with us.

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Preston: Absolutely.

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And, you know, sadly, I think I've seen

this amplified the most unfortunately at

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some recent funerals that I've been to.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's come to really…

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I've, I've, sadly come to really

understand the ritual of a

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funeral more than ever in the

last few years for that reason.

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As it is one thing to suffer a loss, it

is something about suffering a loss inside

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of a community where there's that shared,

where there's something about that that

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allows you to both process it, but also

to be bolstered, right, the energy to

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continue because you're like, "I'm not

alone in this, this isolation- Exactly

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this feeling."

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The thing I wanna jump to is the

intentional use of stillness.

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And when you were talking about alone in

your own mind, one of the things we found

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recently, and we were just talking to Dr.

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Michael Platt, the neuroscientist,

about this, is that

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reflection is a muscle, right?

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Yeah.

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And what's happening to…

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And this is not me hammering

on the coming generation.

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It's a recognition of some of the

choices and the trades that we've made.

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Yeah.

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And by having individuals who are

stimulated all the time through

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electronics, through audio or whatever,

what that means is that they don't

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develop the skill of being bored.

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That's right.

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And what we're seeing in our teams

is that when an athlete or a soldier

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or a, a loved one is, is busy all

the time, all the time, all the

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time, totally activated all the time,

and then suddenly they're injured.

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Suddenly they're sitting in a

hospital room- Mm-hmm … with

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their own thoughts and their

brain's eating themselves, right?

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Because they don't have the

skills in which to do this.

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So I think about universities and

schools, and this is pushing on some

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of your expertise in those areas.

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And I think, w- what is the role of us

as instructors, as, as educators, to

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start putting white space back into the

curriculum, just periods of not boredom,

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but deeper reflection without distraction?

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Sharon: That's something that I think

a lot about as a methodologist, right?

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Because reflexivity, the action of

reflection that's formative to the

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research that you design and conduct is,

you know, in my field, is everything.

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And so I talk a lot with my students

who are counselors, therapists,

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teachers, school leaders, business

leaders, NGO leaders, you know.

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I talk to a range of people

about how important it is to have

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quiet time and quiet thoughts.

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We can call it white noise.

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We can call it reflection.

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The point is that we have to know what

to do with downtime, and we have to know

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how important it is to create downtime.

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And the reason- Your example is a

great one, and I think about, you

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know, this generation of young people

and the instances of depression.

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And one of the reasons is that

they have been presented, you

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know, a technology-mediated

amusement park in their hand.

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Preston: Right.

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Sharon: And life is not an amusement park.

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So that's a mirage that they're

being sold from a very young age.

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And as you know, it shapes their brains.

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And as you're saying, right, then they

don't know what to do- when they're

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not being amused by an external force.

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And so the, what we teach in

education and what I think a lot

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about is what does it mean to quiet

yourself down to notice the space

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between stimulus and response, right?

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So Viktor Frankl has this

saying that it's about the space

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between stimulus and response.

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That's where our power is.

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That's where we can choose our responses.

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And so I actually teach people

how to quiet down enough to

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notice what's your self-talk?

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What are your thoughts?

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What habituated thought processes do you

jump into Given certain stimuli, right?

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And how can you conceptually and

experientially create a space between

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what's said or what's done around

you, or to people around you, and

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you're vicariously feeling that.

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How can you slow down time?

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And it is possible to slow down time.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Sharon: How do you slow down

time and choose your response?

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Which means you're noticing your

self-talk, you're noticing your

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body and your stress responses.

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And in noticing those things, you

reassure yourself, and you are then able

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to say, "Okay, so now how do I wanna

choose to respond to the stimulus?"

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I think that's the model for a lot

of this, or that's an approach to a

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lot of this, where we can actually

retrain people to bring in the ability

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to create space within in the…

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You know, it can be in a quiet

time, it can be in a chaotic time.

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It doesn't matter, it's both.

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But I have the power to create a space

within myself where I can handle any

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problem set handed to me in the moment.

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Preston: Right.

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Sharon: And I can do that because I

know how to control, in a certain sense,

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manage- Yeah … my nervous system.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Sharon: Right?

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So to me, part of, you know,

the biggest part of my answer

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is, yes, we need reflection.

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Yes, we need reflection time.

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Yes, it needs to be built into

all professional development,

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all onboarding, all…

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We really need to help retrain

all of us, ourselves, each

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other, to process in the moment.

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Yeah.

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In the moment.

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You can always process more later.

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But when, you know, as Viktor

Frankl, you know, who created the

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modern mindfulness movement says,

you know, the, it doesn't matter.

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And he, he came up with this in

a concentration camp, you know?

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It doesn't matter what is thrown your way.

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You can't control that.

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But you can certainly

control how you respond.

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And you can work on that over the

course of your life and just get

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better and better and better at it.

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And to me, whether it's racial literacy

or mission critical team or whatever

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people are trying to learn for their

professions, they have to do the nervous

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system work first, or, and simultaneously.

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Preston: So I, I think there's a couple

of things that I just wanna amplify here.

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One of them is, you know, when Viktor

Frankl in Man's Search for Meaning,

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you know, one of the things that I took

from this book is that at some level,

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not always, but at some level- The

experiences that we have, there is a

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moment where it can, we have a choice

to make between receiving it as trauma

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or receiving it as the fuel for wisdom.

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Sharon: Exactly.

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Preston: And-

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Sharon: That's exactly it

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… Preston: because it, I think when we

listen to people who have suffered

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horrific things, some of them

are just utterly destroyed by it.

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And some of them- Mm-hmm … are made-

Denial … to steel by it, right?

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Sharon: Yeah.

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Preston: Right.

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And, and I think we have to remember

that, but I think to this point, and,

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and this brings us to this next topic,

which is the intentional use of emotion.

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And, and one of the things

about, you know, Art Finch and

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others have talked about is the

need for emotional regulation.

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Yes.

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And often our listeners will mis-

misplace, misunderstand emotional

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regulation for compartmentalization

or- Oh, okay … denial of emotion.

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Sharon: That's

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Preston: It's, it's the

recognition and acknowledgement

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that I'm having an emotion.

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And as instructors, one of the things

that made me gravitate towards you

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so early in my career is that even

though you're a professor of education

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and, and from the outside it might

look like you're giving me, you know,

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head pats and telling me I'm awesome.

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The truth is, numerous times in on

my career, you've jacked me up by

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not diminishing me, but by s- by

confronting me with maybe thinking

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I was doing or writing I was doing

that was not to my potential.

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It wasn't what was true.

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It wasn't interrogated enough.

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It wasn't rigorous enough.

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And you would just look at something

and you go, "That's ridiculous.

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That's not true, so fix this."

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And what I loved about it was it could

be shocking, but it wasn't done with

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any other intent than, "I believe in you

more, apparently, than you do right now,"

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and that, this is ridiculous and I'm

not talking to this version of Preston.

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Bring back the Preston that could pull

off great stuff 'cause this is not great."

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And I think that intentional use of

emotion, especially in the modern

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educational environment, is a

dialogue we need to have in a much

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more robust way than we're having.

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Sharon: Yeah, I agree.

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I mean, look, from where I sit, I'm

trained as a psychologist, I'm trained

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as an educational anthropologist.

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To me, it is all about emotion.

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Right.

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I don't see anything happening

well without attention to emotion.

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And so emotion can mean a lot of things,

but it's the ability to read the room.

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Of- often we can read the room, right?

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The room is external to us, but

we can't read ourselves, right?

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And so to me, it's, it's, as

an educator, you know, using my

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body as an intervention, right?

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In places where, you know, things

are often transactional, urgent,

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creating relationship, being warm,

being, for lack of a better term,

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loving and humanizing, that's how

you maximize everyone's potential.

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Yeah.

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Your own and the people

you're trying to serve.

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So f- you know, with you as just

an example Our emotional connection

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was always tended to as we had

our professional connection- Yeah

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right?

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And so it was easy to be

able to communicate with

361

:

you because we had a rhythm.

362

:

Preston: Yep.

363

:

Sharon: And that rhythm is

in part about trust, right?

364

:

And trust is in part about emotion

and the ability for people to align

365

:

our emotional expectations and our

emotional realities with each other.

366

:

Preston: Yep.

367

:

Sharon: And so, you know, to

me, emotion is really the, the

368

:

catalyst for everything, right?

369

:

Yeah.

370

:

Whether it's positive or negative emotion.

371

:

It, you know, negative emotion is a

catalyst for us to often do things

372

:

that are self-harming, you know?

373

:

Yeah.

374

:

Positive emotion, we're

often more self-protective.

375

:

And so, you know, I think that in

all fields we need, and especially

376

:

in urgent fields, we need to come

back to the building of people's

377

:

emotional regulation, but also their

ability for emotional connection.

378

:

Preston: Yeah.

379

:

Sharon: You know, that that's not

relegated to our personal lives.

380

:

Yeah.

381

:

And when you mentioned earlier,

you know, that people can sort of

382

:

understand emotional management or

emotional regulation as siloing or

383

:

compartmentalizing their emotions,

you know, really that ends up

384

:

being repression of emotions.

385

:

Yeah.

386

:

And in a society that's really cruel to

men about their emotions particularly,

387

:

but really a l- all of us, it's, it's

an act of bravery to be emotional.

388

:

You know, it's an act of bravery to

offer what I think of as pedagogical

389

:

or community love to people in

a world that has become so much

390

:

more transactional that's not

even necessarily expecting that.

391

:

But we see it over and over again,

the best commanders, the best CEOs,

392

:

they have emotional intelligence.

393

:

They know how to connect with people.

394

:

They know how to create safeguards and

scaffolds- For the people around them.

395

:

And I think those are sort of

emotional tools we can use.

396

:

You know, how does someone have

their own emotional safeguards

397

:

and their own emotional scaffolds?

398

:

That includes community.

399

:

Preston: Some of the research that's

coming out now on compartmentalization

400

:

is what they're finding is this

paradox between operators…

401

:

Great operators are people that

are able to, in the moment,

402

:

compartmentalize their emotions.

403

:

However, here's the paradox.

404

:

If those same people don't take those

emotion back out of the compartment

405

:

in a certain amount of time, it

could be hours, weeks, months, that

406

:

will actually start to destroy them.

407

:

Sharon: Mm.

408

:

Preston: And so the very thing that

makes them great at what they do is

409

:

also untended or unexamined, the very

thing that will later destroy them.

410

:

And as we will repeat many times on this

Teamcast, currently the suicide rate for

411

:

veterans is that we've lost four times

the amount of, of veterans to suicide

412

:

than we have for combat operations-

Mm … over a 20-year period of time.

413

:

Mm.

414

:

Mm.

415

:

So the same period of time, four times

as many people have committed suicide.

416

:

And so we have to start thinking

about this notion of owning

417

:

the whole problem, right?

418

:

Right.

419

:

That's right.

420

:

And the whole problem-

421

:

Sharon: Yeah

422

:

Preston: is not just an

intellectual problem, it's

423

:

an emotional problem as well.

424

:

Sharon: Absolutely.

425

:

Nothing is ever just an

intellectual problem.

426

:

Right.

427

:

That's what enlightenment tried to teach.

428

:

You know, it's like nothing's

ever doesn't include emotion.

429

:

Yeah.

430

:

We're human beings.

431

:

So, you know, if you're

artificially trying to pull emotion

432

:

out, it's like a magic trick.

433

:

I mean- Yeah … it's, it's not real.

434

:

And that's what's gotten us in trouble.

435

:

We need this sense that people

are just going to figure it out

436

:

in the field, as an example.

437

:

Yeah.

438

:

Belies what we know about emotion, for

one thing, about the nervous system.

439

:

Preston: Yep.

440

:

Sharon: W- we have to be priming people's

nervous systems for them to be able to

441

:

figure out anything, and even that, you

know, people need the ability to practice.

442

:

Yeah.

443

:

And one of the things in my w- work that

I'm focused on now are practice mindsets.

444

:

You know?

445

:

And there are a bunch of different

kinds of practice mindsets, but mindsets

446

:

that are about, how do I practice X?

447

:

Preston: Right.

448

:

Sharon: And in some cases,

X is taming the amygdala.

449

:

Preston: Right.

450

:

Sharon: And in some cases, X is reaching

out more relationally to those around us-

451

:

Preston: Oh, yeah

452

:

… Sharon: because we need to

build those relational skills.

453

:

We need to build our white noise

reflection, being in homeostasis skills.

454

:

Preston: Yeah.

455

:

Sharon: And these kinds of skills

are vital to survival, and so we

456

:

have to understand that emotional

survival means survival- Yep

457

:

right?

458

:

And, and I think that's the…

459

:

And it's a hard sell when, when over

a number of decades and generations,

460

:

emotion has been feminized.

461

:

Preston: Yeah.

462

:

Sharon: And that is one of the cruelest

tricks to men, and I have two sons,

463

:

and I look at how society pretends that

men don't have emotions, tells men- Not

464

:

to have em- you know, the devaluing of

emotion is why people are having more

465

:

trouble with quiet time, with connection,

with reflection And we have to infuse

466

:

it back into professional development,

organizational development, right?

467

:

These things have to be infused

back into the system, particularly

468

:

with the populations you're facing.

469

:

Right?

470

:

Where this means the difference

between survival and not.

471

:

Right?

472

:

this being the emotional attunement.

473

:

Preston: It's interesting, right?

474

:

What I've noticed later in life, and one

of the great quotes that I got is, during

475

:

COVID, my father passed away, and at the

funeral, my aunt, my great aunt, who's

476

:

one of these women who's, like, lived

through everything with fists up, right?

477

:

She said to me, "You know, Preston,"

and, and this is the context you need

478

:

to understand, is that we're a very old

New England family, and she says, "I've

479

:

been watching the men in our family for

a long, long time, and what I've found is

480

:

the ones that do well do two things well.

481

:

And what they do is that when

something is funny, they laugh, and

482

:

when something is sad, they cry."

483

:

Sharon: Oh, yeah.

484

:

Preston: And, and if you can figure

that out, it'll work itself out.

485

:

I love that.

486

:

And I have…

487

:

That was, like, some really deep stuff

because what I've noticed with my

488

:

friends' families, and I'm gonna make some

stereotypes here, but they've actually

489

:

manifested as true for me, is in a New

England family, emotion is something

490

:

to be embarrassed and ashamed about.

491

:

Mm.

492

:

But my friends whose fathers are

Italian or Jewish or Russian, right?

493

:

Emotion is, like, that's part

of the, the whole package.

494

:

That's the

495

:

Sharon: jam.

496

:

That's- That's what makes it all worth it.

497

:

Preston: Right?

498

:

Like, we go from laughter to tears

in, in seconds- Totally … and back.

499

:

Yeah.

500

:

Right?

501

:

And it's all authentic, it's all

real, and then it's all gone.

502

:

It's not held onto.

503

:

It's all processed and managed-

Yeah, I think that- … and,

504

:

like, it's all- I mean,

505

:

Sharon: Yeah … that's true.

506

:

Yeah, yeah.

507

:

Preston: Yeah.

508

:

So I, I think these, these

ways to think about what is…

509

:

You know, I don't think we need to

answer this right now, but something

510

:

for our audience members to think about

was, you know, we all look ahead of

511

:

us at the generations before and say,

"Oh, I'd like to be like that person,

512

:

or I'd like to be like that person."

513

:

And I think as men, we need

to start looking at the

514

:

older men in our life and go-

515

:

Sharon: Mm

516

:

… " Preston: Who, who should I try to sort

of replicate a little bit here, given

517

:

how well they seem to be managing the

various things going on in their lives?"

518

:

Sharon: Yeah.

519

:

I love how you're situating this

on the developmental timeline.

520

:

Preston: Right.

521

:

Sharon: Right?

522

:

The generational timeline.

523

:

If you asked 50 men, "Do you cry?"

524

:

Preston: Yeah.

525

:

Sharon: Do you know what?

526

:

Probably 50% of them would say no.

527

:

Preston: Yep.

528

:

Sharon: Of the other 50%, 35-plus

percent would say the only time

529

:

they cry is in a dark movie theater.

530

:

Preston: Right.

531

:

Sharon: I've done this experiment-

For the Com- … by the way.

532

:

I'm not making this up.

533

:

So what do we surmise from this?

534

:

We surmise that men are only given

permission, this is what was modeled

535

:

for them, this is what was messaged-

Right … to them, this is what

536

:

was indexed, in a dark place where

it's someone else's thing, right?

537

:

Right.

538

:

That is so tragic to me, and I see it.

539

:

I see it in men.

540

:

It's like I can feel it off of men-

541

:

Preston: Yep

542

:

… Sharon: how brutalized you all have been-

543

:

Preston: Yeah

544

:

… Sharon: around just being

able to have what you feel.

545

:

Preston: Right.

546

:

Sharon: And it's like I say to

my girlfriends, you know, listen,

547

:

I get the sexism against women.

548

:

I totally get that, of course, but we're

at least allowed to feel what we feel.

549

:

Preston: Right.

550

:

Sharon: We're allowed to.

551

:

Preston: Yeah.

552

:

Sharon: You know?

553

:

And I take that right every day.

554

:

Preston: Right.

555

:

Sharon: And I think for, you know,

my son, all the men in my life, I

556

:

can see how constrained they are.

557

:

Preston: Yeah.

558

:

Sharon: And it's by someone else's rules.

559

:

Don Miguel Ruiz has this great popular

book called The Four Agreements.

560

:

And the premise of the book is we all

agreed to things before we had the power

561

:

to decide if we actually agreed with them.

562

:

We were kids.

563

:

You agree, you make agreements.

564

:

Girls are gonna act like girls and

boys are gonna act like boys because

565

:

society is making the agreement for us.

566

:

And the whole premise is we have

to really reflect and decide which

567

:

agreements we actually agree with.

568

:

My hope for men would be that men would

decide individually and collectively

569

:

that, that y'all don't agree with

this- absolute ridiculousness

570

:

that you're not supposed to feel.

571

:

And why do men die before women?

572

:

Let's think about it, you know?

573

:

Well, if you can't feel your

emotions, they go into your organs.

574

:

Right.

575

:

They go into your arteries.

576

:

They go…

577

:

Right?

578

:

So I think that one of the

most important things, right,

579

:

it's the nervous system work.

580

:

Part of the nervous system work is

being i- in touch with what you feel-

581

:

Preston: Right.

582

:

Sharon: So- … physically and emotionally

583

:

… Preston: we're gonna continue on

this vein, but I wanna think about

584

:

it from a little bit different

perspective in that it brings us sort

585

:

of into our next question, which is

in addition to the emotions of joy

586

:

and, and sadness and everything else,

there's also the emotion of conflict.

587

:

Sharon: Yes.

588

:

Preston: And so- Yes … what I'm

witnessing now- Mm-hmm … is both

589

:

generations are, a- and, and for

a lot of good reasons, have been

590

:

raised to be collaborative, to,

to be engaged and build consensus.

591

:

But the folks that enter into

em- the world of mission critical

592

:

teams d- always, don't always

have the time in which to do that.

593

:

Right.

594

:

So sometimes things have to happen, and

they have to happen a very certain way

595

:

or somebody's gonna get, die or be hurt

really badly, which means that instead

596

:

of you being engaged or know the reason

why or, or, you know, being asked or

597

:

getting your ideas and thoughts, you're

literally gonna be told, "Do this now."

598

:

And- Right, right … and they

get it wrong, they're like,

599

:

"No, not that way, this way."

600

:

And what's interesting is, is, and it

goes back to something we said before,

601

:

is that I'm a big believer when it comes

to children's development that more often

602

:

than we'd like to admit, that we're not

mitigating risks, we're trading risks.

603

:

Sharon: Yeah, absolutely.

604

:

Preston: And s- and so oftentimes,

our unwillingness to let kids climb

605

:

trees- Yes … fall out of the tree,

and think to themselves, "Man, I

606

:

should hold on tighter," right?

607

:

And learn that lesson when we can control

it, we don't, and then they get to college

608

:

or whatever, where there's drugs, sex, and

alcohol, and the stakes are much higher-

609

:

Sharon: Yes

610

:

Preston: without the

skills to manage the risk.

611

:

And the same thing- Yes … is

true with conflict, right?

612

:

Sharon: Yes

613

:

… Preston: because we're not teaching

them how to give and receive

614

:

feedback, sometimes in a pretty abrupt

way, that when they first get it,

615

:

they're having an amygdala hijack

and go into acute stress response-

616

:

and locking up.

617

:

Sharon: That's exactly- And so- Yeah

618

:

… Preston: as an educator, when you

think about developing young people,

619

:

what are some ways that we can manage

that side of the emotional coin, which

620

:

is, hey, this is not gonna kill you,

but this is part of being an adult?

621

:

Sharon: Yeah, this has always

been an interesting topic.

622

:

I have found it increasingly interesting

since the pandemic, you know, because

623

:

this notion of protecting our youth,

whether it's from getting hurt or

624

:

germs, it is a very interesting thing.

625

:

I read a book right when I was giving

birth to the fir- first of my children

626

:

called The Blessing of the Skinnee.

627

:

And it's this awesome book about, like,

don't try to protect your kid from

628

:

getting a skinned knee, because this,

it's really what you're saying, because

629

:

the skinned knee shows them how to heal.

630

:

Preston: Right.

631

:

Sharon: Right?

632

:

And so I really, in my parenting,

in my teaching, I think it's really

633

:

about creating the conditions, that

include scaffolds, for people to

634

:

actually get messy, get dirty, get

hurt, and practice how to heal.

635

:

Preston: Right.

636

:

Sharon: That's an emotional practice.

637

:

Yeah.

638

:

That's a cognitive practice.

639

:

Right.

640

:

And that's a relational practice,

even if the relationship is with self.

641

:

Yeah.

642

:

And so to me, you have to, and this

is where training and professional

643

:

development come in, you cannot protect

people from reality, or else they do not

644

:

have the skills to deal with reality.

645

:

And so this is why simulations of

all sorts of problems in the work

646

:

environment need to happen, and

also why the real problems need

647

:

to happen and get worked through.

648

:

Right.

649

:

So I think it's about a mindset-

It's about a set of practices, and

650

:

it's about a belief that people have

to learn to be rugged and dogged

651

:

through actual exposure to risk.

652

:

Preston: Yeah.

653

:

Sharon: And if There's not actual

exposure to risk, the amygdala isn't doing

654

:

what it's going to go do in the field.

655

:

Preston: Right.

656

:

Sharon: You can't sterilize conditions

and expect people to know what to

657

:

do in non-sterilized conditions.

658

:

That premise, I really wish more

mission-critical professional

659

:

development would understand.

660

:

No, no, no, it has to be as bad as

it's going to be- That's right … or

661

:

worse in the training, or worse.

662

:

We cannot protect people by protecting

them from learning what they need

663

:

to know and building the skins they

need to build to defend against the

664

:

things that will inevitably happen.

665

:

So, you know, it's even

in my own parenting.

666

:

Preston: Right.

667

:

Sharon: My children have been given

loving feedback, very clear, very

668

:

firm, and non-wavering feedback

when they need to level up.

669

:

Preston: Yeah.

670

:

Sharon: Why?

671

:

They're going to get that

for the rest of their lives.

672

:

That's

673

:

Preston: right.

674

:

So one of the very practical ways that

I'm watching this unfold in ways that

675

:

I don't actually have a handle on how

to fix, and I'll give you an example,

676

:

is in a university environment, an

academic environment, we've seen

677

:

over the last few years the rise of

influence of students' opinions of

678

:

their faculty on those faculty's career.

679

:

And it's not just Yeah.

680

:

it's not just- Yeah … faculty, right?

681

:

It's also, for example-

Yeah … the, the staff that runs

682

:

simulati- medical simulations.

683

:

So here's a scenario is, to this is the

m- point you just made, is that you're

684

:

taking a group of nurses and doctors

who will go into surgery to work on your

685

:

family members in urgent environments.

686

:

You're putting them in simulations,

but the people running the simulations

687

:

are hesitant to actually crank up the

stressors, meaning the emotional stressors

688

:

or the conflict stressors, because they

might leave the students with a really

689

:

rough experience, because it might

negatively influence their careers.

690

:

And that structure which we're seeing

fairly widespread right now, the, the

691

:

cooling or the lack of incentive or

the increasingly diminishing incentives

692

:

for faculty to confront students

because of the potential costs of that.

693

:

Right.

694

:

And that really actually

worries me for our society.

695

:

Oh, absolutely.

696

:

I'm not, this is not me-

It's a very big problem

697

:

advocating for people to

beat people up at all.

698

:

Sharon: Yeah, no, I

understand what you're saying.

699

:

Preston: And I just

700

:

Sharon: want to hear your

thoughts I mean, it, it should

701

:

worry you Yeah It worries me.

702

:

You know?

703

:

And we see this across sectors and fields.

704

:

I don't understand that mindset.

705

:

To me, it's an ethical issue- Right

… that you actually expose people to

706

:

what they need to be exposed to.

707

:

Who's doing who a favor?

708

:

You know, I often wonder if it isn't

those instructors not wanting to have

709

:

to deal with the emotional fallout.

710

:

Preston: Right.

711

:

Sharon: And I'm not even blaming them.

712

:

Maybe there's not enough…

713

:

Maybe the system needs to be

recalibrated for them to be able to.

714

:

But to not expose people to the training

that they need, the training cannot be

715

:

pulled out of the context of the training.

716

:

Preston: Yeah.

717

:

Sharon: So in a million years, I can't

imagine the mindset that is avoiding

718

:

exposing people to the v- very things that

will enable them to survive and thrive-

719

:

Preston: Yeah

720

:

… Sharon: it's really, it's…

721

:

That, to me, is really

abnegating a responsibility to

722

:

truly get people to practice.

723

:

Practicing in a sterilized,

decontextualized environment

724

:

is not actually practicing.

725

:

Preston: Right.

726

:

Sharon: It's approximating-

Right … practice.

727

:

Preston: And what's interesting

about this is that I see both

728

:

sides of it, meaning- Yeah … the

inverse is true with the teams.

729

:

So in academia, I will see

people that will lean too far

730

:

towards the accommodation, the

support- Yes … the enablement.

731

:

Yes.

732

:

And on the teams, I'll see people indexed

too far the other side, which is- Mm-hmm

733

:

"Oh, it was hard for me, it needs to

be harder for you"- Ooh … without

734

:

engaging- Yeah … the emotional side

of it, like, the support part of it.

735

:

Sharon: Yeah, yeah.

736

:

You have to engage that part of it-

Right … or else what are you doing?

737

:

Preston: Right.

738

:

It's Actually not them versus

them, it's actually both need

739

:

to move back towards the middle-

740

:

Sharon: Yes

741

:

Preston: Acknowledge the

entirety of the student.

742

:

Sharon: Well, yeah,

that's beautifully said.

743

:

I agree with you.

744

:

I mean, it's…

745

:

Yeah, exactly, right?

746

:

And it's, it is that, you know,

when you look at the student-

747

:

Really as a body- Yeah … not

just as a, as a number, you know?

748

:

That body has to have

emotional regulation.

749

:

Preston: Yeah.

750

:

Sharon: I think it's an artifact

of a culture that's gotten,

751

:

"Don't expose kids to germs- Right

752

:

and don't…"

753

:

You know?

754

:

I think that there's something

that's gotten miswired

755

:

about what protection means.

756

:

Preston: Yeah.

757

:

' Sharon: Cause really what protection

means is actually preparing my

758

:

sons for the world, even if it has

made them uncomfortable sometimes.

759

:

It is actually preparing your people for

what you know they're going to need to be

760

:

prepared for, including loss and grief.

761

:

Preston: Yeah.

762

:

Sharon: Right?

763

:

Yes.

764

:

Including loss and grief.

765

:

Preston: 100%

766

:

Sharon: And disappointment-

Yep … and resentment.

767

:

Preston: And i- ironically, success,

and achievement, and awards.

768

:

So being able to have the ability

to, when somebody says, which is,

769

:

"If somebody pays you a compliment,

it's actually not your job to

770

:

evaluate the truth of the compliment.

771

:

It's your, it's your job to

acknowledge the gesture," right?

772

:

Yeah.

773

:

Sharon: Which is- That's really well said

774

:

… Preston: it's not your job to go, "Oh,

I'm not so smart or talented," or, "No,

775

:

it was somebody el- " That's not your job.

776

:

Your job is to go, "Sharon, that's

very kind of you to say that.

777

:

Thanks very much."

778

:

That, that's it.

779

:

Yeah.

780

:

They stop there.

781

:

Sharon: Yeah

782

:

… Preston: that's all you have to do.

783

:

And yet we've all been conditioned

to be so del- self-deprecating that

784

:

we role model the inability to take

compliments or to accept awards, even

785

:

though it doesn't just benefit us,

us, it benefits our community as well.

786

:

Sharon: I mean, I think it, it's

interesting h- that you say that,

787

:

because we, it seems we've lost the

ability to celebrate- Nuance- Yeah

788

:

And smaller moments, you know, that

really do comprise success in our lives.

789

:

Yeah.

790

:

You know, success defined by adaptability.

791

:

Yeah.

792

:

You know, success defined by

happiness, you know, healthiness.

793

:

I'm not talking about the more

capitalist notion of success.

794

:

Right.

795

:

I'm talking about living a good life.

796

:

Preston: Like contentment.

797

:

Sharon: Right, contentment, and I

think American society in general,

798

:

has lost the art of contentment.

799

:

Preston: Yes.

800

:

Sharon: Part of that is coming back

to your white noise, you know, our

801

:

conversation about white noise earlier.

802

:

Part of losing contentment is about

when you overlay expectations onto

803

:

every moment of your life, right?

804

:

So social media has now made it

every moment of my life has to be

805

:

interesting and fabulous, apparently.

806

:

Right.

807

:

Ri- I mean, I don't buy into that, but,

but most of the people around me do.

808

:

Preston: Right.

809

:

Sharon: That also means, especially

for men, well, in every moment I have

810

:

to be strong, and I've understood

strong as these tiny little things.

811

:

Not crying, not showing emotion.

812

:

Yeah.

813

:

Never, quote unquote,

breaking down, you know?

814

:

Not compromising, not

apologizing, whatever it is.

815

:

You know, this is done to people.

816

:

You know, in our deepest hearts,

we all wanna be loved and relevant.

817

:

Preston: Yep.

818

:

Sharon: And so I think we have to

get back to what would it mean for

819

:

each person to be loved and relevant

in their life and in their work?

820

:

Right.

821

:

You know, what would it look like

for us to be able to give and

822

:

take compliments more regularly?

823

:

What would it look like for us

to be able to actually feel good

824

:

about ourselves enough to take the

compliments and know that they're true?

825

:

Preston: Yeah.

826

:

Sharon: Right?

827

:

What would it look…

828

:

And so it would look

like us pushing against-

829

:

the gendered forces that are telling men,

"Don't feel," that are telling women, "You

830

:

can only feel in these ways," and that are

telling all of us- Emotion is weakness.

831

:

Preston: Yeah.

832

:

Sharon: Emotion is strength.

833

:

Being able to u- understand and

manage your emotions is a superpower.

834

:

Preston: Yeah.

835

:

Sharon: And yet we're forgetting to

teach the steps to getting there.

836

:

It's not just the environmental

stressors, it's what they do to our

837

:

systems that need to be practiced.

838

:

Preston: So I'm gonna point us to one

more sort of variable here, or component,

839

:

or foundational component to a series of

questions I'll ask you about moving from

840

:

the different pictures within the article.

841

:

Yeah.

842

:

And this has to do with some

research that was done by Colonel Dr.

843

:

Art Finch on the, the nature of the

learning profiles within special

844

:

operations, where there is an

exceedingly high level of things like

845

:

ADHD, dyslexia, things like that.

846

:

And y- you know, broadly speaking,

neuroscientists are now talking

847

:

about that as neurodiversity- Yeah

848

:

which is to say that all of our

brains are different, and they're

849

:

different along a spectrum.

850

:

And in having these things that have

been labeled as ADHD and dyslexia

851

:

and things are seen by, let's call

it the, the industrial school sort of

852

:

system as a deficit because they're

hard to control within a classroom.

853

:

But when we actually see them in

practice, what we find is high levels of

854

:

innovation, high levels of collaboration-

855

:

Sharon: Absolutely

856

:

… Preston: high levels of creativity.

857

:

Sharon: Absolutely.

858

:

Preston: And what people,

for good reason, right?

859

:

We've, we've been having a long, many year

conversation about the need for diversity.

860

:

And w- what happens is that those

terms, as often happens, will get

861

:

co-opted a lot of different ways-

862

:

and leave people with a lot of

different feelings in their mouth.

863

:

And w- what I wanna point out for

this conversation is I'm actually not

864

:

making a racial gender argument here.

865

:

What I'm saying is against complex

adaptive problem sets, you need

866

:

to maximize your neurodiversity,

and one of the proxies for that-

867

:

is race and gender.

868

:

But some of the other proxies for that are

some of these different learning profiles.

869

:

Sharon: Absolutely.

870

:

Preston: And so as we think about

developing an entire generation that will

871

:

have a maximum huge spectrum of these,

how can we as educators think about

872

:

not developing a cohort, but developing

a group of individuals who will come

873

:

together as a cohort in a working matrix?

874

:

And I just wanna sort of throw that out

to you as, as to any of your thoughts.

875

:

Sharon: I love the way you think.

876

:

Yeah, it's all about neurodiversity.

877

:

You know, it's one of those things

where it's like, uh-huh, right?

878

:

To- because as an educator and a

psychologist, it's so common sense to me,

879

:

like of course you need neurodiversity.

880

:

You know, it's like Malcolm Gladwell

wrote this wonderful essay on how

881

:

so many CEOs actually have dyslexia.

882

:

Preston: Yeah.

883

:

Sharon: One of my own children has

dyslexia, and I can tell you from

884

:

w- all that I've read and what I

have observed is it is exactly A

885

:

brain that is wired for innovation.

886

:

Preston: Yeah.

887

:

Sharon: Unquestionably.

888

:

Because you have to do cognitive

workarounds to get to where

889

:

everyone else just naturally is.

890

:

Preston: That's right.

891

:

Sharon: And so even on my own research

teams, I'm no longer just looking for…

892

:

Historically, I was always

looking for what I would call

893

:

equitable representation.

894

:

Speaker 3: Right.

895

:

Sharon: Which was about race, social

class, gender, ethnicity maybe, you

896

:

know, religion, whatever it might have

been about depending on the study.

897

:

Preston: Yeah.

898

:

Sharon: I like to have people with very

different communication styles, right?

899

:

So people on the spectrum who can be very

direct are such an asset on my teams.

900

:

And so I'm actually, and I've talked

about this in a lot of professional

901

:

contexts, and I've been interviewed

about this because I'm very verbal.

902

:

I- I'm very outspoken about the fact

that when I say equitable representation

903

:

now, it means neurodiversity too.

904

:

Yeah.

905

:

And I think we have to shift that.

906

:

Also, often equitable representation

leaves out people who are on

907

:

the continuum of disability.

908

:

Preston: Yeah.

909

:

Sharon: And I think for all of this, it's

about shifting to an asset lens, an asset

910

:

frame on every single person, right?

911

:

Yeah.

912

:

Because the deficit orientation

to people is thinking they

913

:

have cognitive deficiencies-

914

:

Preston: Yep

915

:

… Sharon: versus that their

brains are wired differently.

916

:

That's the catastrophic mistake, to

think that disability means less than.

917

:

Preston: Yeah.

918

:

No, I, I agree, and I think why

this becomes really important for

919

:

mission critical teams is because

when we look at the assessment and

920

:

selection pipelines, often w- the

mistake that people are making is

921

:

this notion of a good fit, right?

922

:

A good fit in the community.

923

:

And, and the danger there is you end up

cloning each other, and what that does-

924

:

is over time, and not immediately, but

little by little over time, you're sort

925

:

of decreasing your cognitive gene pool.

926

:

You're decreasing the number

of tools in your toolkit.

927

:

So everybody's closer, and they're like,

"Man, Sharon, that's a good idea," and

928

:

you're like, "Thanks, it was your idea."

929

:

And that's act- Right?

930

:

It's actually not helpful- … to solving

really complex problems 'cause w- all

931

:

we've got is a hammer, and what we need

is a really robust s- tool cabinet.

932

:

So we, we've gotta figure out how

to acknowledge the weirdness as an

933

:

asset, as a strength, rather than as

a deficit as you point out, and that-

934

:

Sharon: Unequivocally.

935

:

Preston: Mean- … that takes

a lot of time and energy.

936

:

Sharon: And it takes really

actually asking ourselves- What

937

:

have I been programmed to think-

938

:

Preston: Yeah

939

:

… Sharon: about people who show

up in non-traditional ways?

940

:

Preston: Yeah.

941

:

Sharon: What have I been

programmed to think?

942

:

What have I agreed to that I don't

necessarily, actually, it doesn't

943

:

really actually match my values?

944

:

Like, why do we think people

with disabilities Yeah … live

945

:

less valuable lives, right?

946

:

Not, I mean, not everyone does,

but people, many people do.

947

:

We've been programmed to think this.

948

:

Speaker 3: Right.

949

:

Sharon: And so it's actually in

part about deprogramming ourselves

950

:

from our habituated deficit

orientations about people who

951

:

just don't show up as normative.

952

:

Preston: Yeah.

953

:

I think, these are all the foundations,

and now I'm gonna set us up for sort

954

:

of what we've been leading towards.

955

:

And that's this idea that you've got

a, a group of students, and these group

956

:

of students, let's look at the modern

generation, are stimulated all the time.

957

:

They may or may not-

958

:

right, be good at risk-taking.

959

:

They may or may not be good at conflict.

960

:

They may or may not be good at stillness.

961

:

They may or may not be good at emotion.

962

:

They've been sitting in a classroom for

18 of the last past years, and somewhere

963

:

along the line, for a variety of reasons,

they've decided to go to medical school.

964

:

Now, medical schools are evolving,

and I, I don't mean to paint

965

:

them this picture where it's all

rows and chairs and instructors.

966

:

There's, there's really dynamic,

amazing things going on, but the

967

:

predominant length of their educational

experience have been in rows and

968

:

seats and chairs and teachers.

969

:

And so they're coming from this

environment where after 18 years, they

970

:

graduate medical school, the, the,

the instructional part of it, in May.

971

:

And in August, they're in an operating

room as part of a team where there

972

:

are humans coming in who are broken.

973

:

And they've gotta s- gotta both

learn their job, they have to learn

974

:

the applied side of their job.

975

:

They've gotta learn how to work on a team.

976

:

They've gotta learn how to work

within a particular cultural context.

977

:

They've gotta learn how to give and

receive feedback in very real time.

978

:

They've gotta learn to deal with, with

everything from conflict to trauma,

979

:

but as an educator and as a person who

thinks deeply about these things, if

980

:

you were to go to 10,000 feet and think

about this, society's children, and those

981

:

children who are, will be entering into

these mission-critical environments, and

982

:

that we've gotta figure out a better way

because what we're finding is, is that

983

:

developing someone intellectually to

enter these environments and expecting

984

:

them to figure it out isn't working.

985

:

They're not figuring it out.

986

:

And as my friend Bryce McDonald at

UCLA said to me so eloquently, he

987

:

said, "Preston, the problem is, is

that we think we're teaching people

988

:

how to swim when in fact we're

teaching people how to tread water."

989

:

Mm-hmm.

990

:

And what happens is you add too

much stress to somebody who's

991

:

t- treading water, and treading

water soon becomes drowning.

992

:

That's it.

993

:

And we've got to get back into the

business of not teaching treading

994

:

water, but teaching swimming.

995

:

And so with that as a lead-up, given

everything we've talked about, when

996

:

you reflect on sort of what we can be

doing right now to better support these

997

:

students to make that transition, what

are some of the things that come to mind?

998

:

Sharon: I think to me actually, the

framework of post-traumatic growth-

999

:

Yeah … is a really important one.

:

00:49:15,445 --> 00:49:17,653

This is building on the

work of Rich Tedeschi.

:

00:49:17,765 --> 00:49:18,037

Preston: Yep.

:

00:49:18,305 --> 00:49:22,588

Sharon: And, you know, I think

post-traumatic growth really talks

:

00:49:22,588 --> 00:49:30,642

about what happens when we go through

traumatic events and are actually,

:

00:49:30,837 --> 00:49:34,593

the, the conditions have been

created for us to be able to process

:

00:49:34,595 --> 00:49:37,036

and make use of those experiences.

:

00:49:37,495 --> 00:49:41,261

And, you know, it's such

an assets-based approach to

:

00:49:41,262 --> 00:49:44,387

understanding trauma, broadly defined.

:

00:49:44,404 --> 00:49:50,578

And the trauma of mission critical

teams is so profound, as you know.

:

00:49:50,964 --> 00:49:53,704

And so to me, this notion of

post-traumatic growth, it's

:

00:49:53,705 --> 00:49:56,624

like, not what happened to

you, but what's right with you.

:

00:49:56,753 --> 00:49:56,985

Preston: Right.

:

00:49:57,037 --> 00:50:01,974

Sharon: It's the ability to meet

people where they are, help them

:

00:50:01,984 --> 00:50:07,440

see their heroism and their strength

and their resilience, and then they

:

00:50:07,443 --> 00:50:12,785

are able to make meaning, make sense

of, and make use of that trauma

:

00:50:13,435 --> 00:50:15,414

to go do the next step stronger.

:

00:50:15,795 --> 00:50:19,554

And I think this, you know, the concept

of post-traumatic growth, which I'm

:

00:50:19,555 --> 00:50:24,013

working on a lot now in terms of

leadership development, is helping

:

00:50:24,026 --> 00:50:29,567

people rewrite parts of their narratives-

Yeah … parts of their life stories.

:

00:50:30,006 --> 00:50:35,456

Where there's trauma, it's an inflection

point- Yeah … rather than however

:

00:50:35,456 --> 00:50:39,015

they might have been interpreting

it negatively against themselves.

:

00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:44,206

Post-traumatic growth is really about

how do we figure out, based on what we've

:

00:50:44,207 --> 00:50:49,855

experienced, how to pay it forward- Yeah

… how to, while we take care of self.

:

00:50:49,856 --> 00:50:53,586

And so to me, a lot of what you're

talking about makes me think about

:

00:50:53,928 --> 00:50:59,322

assets-based frameworks on how people

leverage those experiences, and the

:

00:50:59,322 --> 00:51:04,595

emotional skills they build through those

experiences to build their move forward.

:

00:51:04,835 --> 00:51:09,232

And then the other thing I'll say

is, again, I think a lot about

:

00:51:09,258 --> 00:51:15,465

emotional regulation- Yeah … as

a mainstay aspect of what has to

:

00:51:15,471 --> 00:51:19,019

be drilled into all professional

development, whether it's through

:

00:51:19,021 --> 00:51:20,951

simulation or other kinds of things.

:

00:51:21,314 --> 00:51:25,212

Preston: When we are

thinking about- labels.

:

00:51:25,212 --> 00:51:27,106

And as you've taught me,

labels really matter.

:

00:51:27,573 --> 00:51:33,034

And I think all of us need to be much

more thoughtful about when we label

:

00:51:33,041 --> 00:51:36,633

something as trauma and when we label

something as an experience or an

:

00:51:36,634 --> 00:51:38,456

event which may or may not be trauma.

:

00:51:38,476 --> 00:51:41,107

But until it's, it, we have to

investigate it, we have to understand

:

00:51:41,110 --> 00:51:42,329

it, we have to come to terms with it.

:

00:51:42,712 --> 00:51:47,411

We can't simply label every negative

event or difficult event in our life as

:

00:51:47,411 --> 00:51:50,041

trauma because it does a couple of things.

:

00:51:50,087 --> 00:51:54,471

One, it sets us up to, for a life that's

full of trauma, which isn't good for you.

:

00:51:54,821 --> 00:51:58,710

And two, it, it masks the real

trauma in our life that actually

:

00:51:58,710 --> 00:52:00,792

needs to get investigated, right?

:

00:52:00,951 --> 00:52:05,118

And then lastly, it diminishes the ability

of us for, to grow and learn through these

:

00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:09,206

experiences by making them fuel for our

wisdom rather than fuel for our sorrow.

:

00:52:09,761 --> 00:52:16,684

And so I, I say all of that because I

think that how we frame those folks going

:

00:52:16,685 --> 00:52:20,125

from classroom to operating room, how

we frame the experiences that they'll

:

00:52:20,125 --> 00:52:23,584

encounter, rather than coming from a

place of fear, "Man, you're gonna see

:

00:52:23,584 --> 00:52:25,230

a lot of really rough things, man."

:

00:52:25,554 --> 00:52:29,221

Instead to say, "Just so you know,

when you leave this classroom,

:

00:52:29,232 --> 00:52:30,699

you're choosing the hard path.

:

00:52:31,132 --> 00:52:35,498

And with the hard path will come

a lot of extreme experiences.

:

00:52:35,951 --> 00:52:38,850

Some of those will linger with you,

and you need to deal with that.

:

00:52:39,272 --> 00:52:43,201

Some of them, however, will be the stories

you'll then tell to the people that

:

00:52:43,201 --> 00:52:45,880

you develop as your ways of learning."

:

00:52:46,285 --> 00:52:49,763

And so I say all that to you to sort of

think about, or not think about, but,

:

00:52:50,022 --> 00:52:55,463

but really, to be more nuanced about

this idea of post-traumatic growth.

:

00:52:56,056 --> 00:52:56,393

Sharon: Yeah.

:

00:52:56,395 --> 00:52:59,492

I, I really hear what you're

saying, and I agree with you.

:

00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:04,375

And I think the only thing I would

add is yes to everything you said,

:

00:53:04,867 --> 00:53:10,247

and we actually need a more finely

differentiated understanding-

:

00:53:10,412 --> 00:53:10,573

Preston: Yeah

:

00:53:10,573 --> 00:53:12,557

… Sharon: of actually what trauma is.

:

00:53:12,582 --> 00:53:12,928

Preston: Yep.

:

00:53:13,087 --> 00:53:19,103

Sharon: Because if we reframe trauma,

it doesn't have to carry the wallop-

:

00:53:19,398 --> 00:53:19,641

Preston: Right

:

00:53:19,762 --> 00:53:21,012

Sharon: that we think it does, right?

:

00:53:21,013 --> 00:53:23,787

If we depathologize trauma-

:

00:53:23,995 --> 00:53:24,259

Preston: Yeah

:

00:53:24,927 --> 00:53:28,953

… Sharon: which we need to as a society,

everything you're saying I agree with,

:

00:53:28,995 --> 00:53:33,800

and I just wanted to also add, we

still need to depathologize trauma.

:

00:53:33,824 --> 00:53:34,005

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:53:34,411 --> 00:53:38,535

Sharon: And we need to depathologize

trauma because all of us will experience

:

00:53:38,550 --> 00:53:40,463

trauma in our lives on a continuum.

:

00:53:40,633 --> 00:53:40,986

Preston: Right.

:

00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:44,359

Sharon: And if we

pathologize it, we fear it-

:

00:53:44,546 --> 00:53:44,756

Preston: Yeah

:

00:53:44,756 --> 00:53:46,784

… Sharon: and we think it makes us broken.

:

00:53:46,879 --> 00:53:47,242

Preston: Right.

:

00:53:47,642 --> 00:53:52,127

Sharon: When we don't pathologize

it, when we expect it-

:

00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:52,760

Preston: Yeah

:

00:53:53,420 --> 00:53:55,024

… Sharon: when we normalize it-

:

00:53:55,141 --> 00:53:55,440

Preston: Yep

:

00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:01,069

… Sharon: and when we address it

through assets, positive assets-based

:

00:54:01,503 --> 00:54:06,687

ways, you know, there's just more

wiggle room for the ways that

:

00:54:06,774 --> 00:54:08,609

so much trauma is experienced.

:

00:54:08,910 --> 00:54:10,998

It, it's not a death sentence.

:

00:54:11,045 --> 00:54:11,338

Preston: Right.

:

00:54:11,745 --> 00:54:14,139

Sharon: It's not, "This is it.

:

00:54:14,186 --> 00:54:15,350

I had this trauma and that's it."

:

00:54:15,598 --> 00:54:20,137

You can move trauma

You can move mountains.

:

00:54:20,173 --> 00:54:20,355

Yeah.

:

00:54:20,355 --> 00:54:23,263

You know, we know how to get

people through these things, right?

:

00:54:23,265 --> 00:54:28,297

So I really hear what you're saying,

and I also think our society has like

:

00:54:28,297 --> 00:54:33,959

a:

we know that it's a movable thing.

:

00:54:34,113 --> 00:54:34,401

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:54:34,619 --> 00:54:35,936

Sharon: That it's not

a sentence of any kind.

:

00:54:35,936 --> 00:54:36,850

Preston: A death sentence, yeah.

:

00:54:37,185 --> 00:54:37,560

Sharon: Yeah.

:

00:54:37,781 --> 00:54:42,625

It's- It's, it's literally this

is, this is part of your identity,

:

00:54:42,735 --> 00:54:44,004

this thing that happened to you.

:

00:54:44,004 --> 00:54:44,369

Preston: Okay?

:

00:54:44,369 --> 00:54:46,853

So this leads us to this

next question, right?

:

00:54:46,854 --> 00:54:46,952

Yeah.

:

00:54:46,957 --> 00:54:50,352

As we, as we come towards the end

of our time together, I've got

:

00:54:50,352 --> 00:54:51,391

a couple more questions for you.

:

00:54:51,598 --> 00:54:51,611

Sure.

:

00:54:51,611 --> 00:54:55,099

But this idea where, okay, you've

been in the operating room.

:

00:54:55,218 --> 00:54:57,826

You've, you've managed

the days, your shifts.

:

00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,522

You know, you're a couple of days, a few

weeks, maybe a few months in, and then all

:

00:55:01,522 --> 00:55:03,415

of a sudden you have the bad day, right?

:

00:55:03,534 --> 00:55:04,887

A child was in a car accident.

:

00:55:04,899 --> 00:55:06,101

They came in with four limbs.

:

00:55:06,101 --> 00:55:08,629

They're leaving with three limbs,

and you gotta go tell the parents.

:

00:55:09,185 --> 00:55:12,413

That's by any estimation

a horrible, horrible day.

:

00:55:12,415 --> 00:55:12,864

Horrible.

:

00:55:13,055 --> 00:55:13,256

Speaker 3: Mm.

:

00:55:13,318 --> 00:55:15,343

Preston: And so, but

this is the hard part.

:

00:55:15,801 --> 00:55:17,490

This is the path you chose.

:

00:55:17,541 --> 00:55:19,533

This is what hospitals do.

:

00:55:19,802 --> 00:55:22,670

There isn't any way to dress

this up and make it nicer.

:

00:55:22,717 --> 00:55:23,396

No, it's the reality.

:

00:55:23,456 --> 00:55:24,579

It will happen again.

:

00:55:24,858 --> 00:55:25,685

Sharon: Absolutely.

:

00:55:25,786 --> 00:55:29,827

Preston: And so when we think as

educators about preparing people

:

00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:31,650

for that, how do we do that?

:

00:55:33,322 --> 00:55:35,749

Sharon: I mean, that's the

bajillion-dollar question.

:

00:55:35,809 --> 00:55:38,153

And I will say it's a lot

of what we're talking about.

:

00:55:38,166 --> 00:55:42,198

If a curriculum has to meet people

where we are in our bodies, that

:

00:55:42,199 --> 00:55:43,862

is about emotional regulation.

:

00:55:44,074 --> 00:55:46,097

That's about understanding cognition.

:

00:55:46,417 --> 00:55:51,972

That's about understanding nutrition

and, and sleep and wellness, right?

:

00:55:52,256 --> 00:55:52,314

Yeah.

:

00:55:52,324 --> 00:55:58,200

And so to me, preparation, you,

you wanna overprepare people.

:

00:55:58,369 --> 00:55:58,496

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:55:58,514 --> 00:56:02,489

Sharon: You wanna hit them so hard

they, that like whatever hits them

:

00:56:02,489 --> 00:56:04,362

when they get into their actual jobs-

:

00:56:04,509 --> 00:56:04,712

Preston: Yeah

:

00:56:04,718 --> 00:56:06,340

… Sharon: feels like a breather.

:

00:56:06,409 --> 00:56:07,005

Preston: Yeah, right.

:

00:56:07,309 --> 00:56:07,751

Sharon: Right?

:

00:56:07,770 --> 00:56:09,430

Like, I think of it in the reverse.

:

00:56:09,450 --> 00:56:13,100

I think training and professional

development for mission-critical teams,

:

00:56:13,102 --> 00:56:16,441

for people who are in the lion's den-

:

00:56:16,601 --> 00:56:22,449

for their professions has to be

so difficult because then people

:

00:56:22,449 --> 00:56:23,547

are building those muscles.

:

00:56:23,828 --> 00:56:27,846

If it's not, I actually feel we're

abnegating our responsibilities as

:

00:56:27,847 --> 00:56:34,522

educators and professional development

experts to give people ideas- And

:

00:56:34,522 --> 00:56:37,890

not to ground those ideas in their

bodies and their nervous systems and

:

00:56:37,890 --> 00:56:41,091

their brains, it's not, it's not fair.

:

00:56:41,211 --> 00:56:42,679

It's not an ethical practice.

:

00:56:42,679 --> 00:56:48,560

And so I really believe strongly

in the wedding of the intellectual,

:

00:56:48,561 --> 00:56:53,344

the cognitive, and the affectual,

you know, the affective.

:

00:56:53,463 --> 00:56:53,681

Preston: Right.

:

00:56:53,729 --> 00:56:55,131

Sharon: And the emotional.

:

00:56:55,131 --> 00:56:55,201

Yeah.

:

00:56:55,201 --> 00:56:55,911

Exactly.

:

00:56:56,602 --> 00:56:59,235

Preston: So one of the things, and, and

this w- we'll, we'll now sort of head

:

00:56:59,236 --> 00:57:02,653

to the finish line here, and I wanna try

to tie it together in the following way

:

00:57:03,205 --> 00:57:07,376

and, and tap into some of your expertise

as a recognized international expert

:

00:57:07,394 --> 00:57:09,511

on sort of research methodologies.

:

00:57:09,514 --> 00:57:13,695

And I'll say it this way, which is

this paper that we wrote started out

:

00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:19,806

because I was watching teams around the

country preparing people intellectually,

:

00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:23,560

cognitively, and physically for these

other environments that we've talked

:

00:57:23,570 --> 00:57:28,172

about in these pictures, and realizing

that there was a whole sort of component

:

00:57:28,230 --> 00:57:32,357

about an existential transition that

no one was really talking about.

:

00:57:32,358 --> 00:57:36,574

And by that, for our audience, what I

mean by that is purpose and identity.

:

00:57:36,642 --> 00:57:37,378

Who am I?

:

00:57:37,484 --> 00:57:38,525

Why am I here?

:

00:57:38,631 --> 00:57:39,796

What am I doing here?

:

00:57:40,330 --> 00:57:43,268

As a student, that's

sort of provided for you.

:

00:57:43,608 --> 00:57:44,339

You're a learner.

:

00:57:44,341 --> 00:57:45,046

That's your job.

:

00:57:45,047 --> 00:57:45,983

Somebody tells you.

:

00:57:46,227 --> 00:57:46,385

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:46,394 --> 00:57:46,728

When

:

00:57:46,736 --> 00:57:49,810

Preston: you first go to the

team You know, you've got to

:

00:57:49,811 --> 00:57:51,025

establish that for yourself.

:

00:57:51,027 --> 00:57:52,476

You've got to figure out, why am I here?

:

00:57:52,477 --> 00:57:53,377

What's going on?

:

00:57:53,403 --> 00:57:55,645

And you really need a team to do that.

:

00:57:55,672 --> 00:57:58,871

The social brain, you've gotta,

you've gotta do that collaboratively.

:

00:57:59,180 --> 00:58:05,013

But what this all culminates in is this

idea that on the bad day, you've gotta

:

00:58:05,056 --> 00:58:10,974

actually recognize that you are an

individual with an identity and a purpose

:

00:58:11,182 --> 00:58:15,626

which not only allows you to be in that

space, but needs you to be in that space.

:

00:58:15,690 --> 00:58:15,952

Sharon: Right.

:

00:58:16,033 --> 00:58:16,253

Preston: Right?

:

00:58:16,373 --> 00:58:19,681

No One's gonna give you permission

explicitly to enter that space.

:

00:58:19,816 --> 00:58:20,052

Sharon: That's

:

00:58:20,054 --> 00:58:20,216

Preston: right.

:

00:58:20,237 --> 00:58:21,708

But we as society need you to.

:

00:58:22,446 --> 00:58:22,856

Sharon: Right.

:

00:58:23,045 --> 00:58:26,638

Preston: And so one of the things that

when I started doing this research early

:

00:58:26,638 --> 00:58:31,231

on that you and I talked about is I was

making the mistake, I think, of thinking

:

00:58:31,231 --> 00:58:34,929

that I was gonna find the solutions

to all this in the written journals.

:

00:58:35,236 --> 00:58:35,282

Oh, yeah.

:

00:58:35,282 --> 00:58:40,885

And it wasn't until I started really,

really listening to the instructor

:

00:58:40,886 --> 00:58:45,655

cadre, to the communities of practice,

where I recognized that they are the

:

00:58:45,711 --> 00:58:51,656

elders of a community who are in part

responsible for the development of,

:

00:58:51,808 --> 00:58:53,265

of people's identity and purpose.

:

00:58:53,287 --> 00:58:54,222

Sharon: Absolutely.

:

00:58:54,420 --> 00:58:57,568

Preston: And so when we think about,

you know, people will say to me, "Well,

:

00:58:57,570 --> 00:58:59,674

Preston, is this article peer reviewed?"

:

00:58:59,674 --> 00:59:03,162

And I'll say, "It actually

is by the actual peers."

:

00:59:03,398 --> 00:59:03,673

Meaning the-

:

00:59:03,693 --> 00:59:04,169

Sharon: absolutely

:

00:59:04,702 --> 00:59:05,951

… Preston: right, the actual practitioners.

:

00:59:06,061 --> 00:59:06,221

Sharon: Yeah.

:

00:59:06,321 --> 00:59:09,670

Well, I mean, that's a regurgitation

of a very limited sense of

:

00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:10,816

what an expert is, right?

:

00:59:10,816 --> 00:59:10,947

Right.

:

00:59:10,970 --> 00:59:13,436

An expert is the person

doing the actual thing.

:

00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:13,654

Right.

:

00:59:13,654 --> 00:59:16,403

Not somebody sitting in their

office typing about the actual- Yeah

:

00:59:16,407 --> 00:59:16,836

the thing.

:

00:59:17,069 --> 00:59:17,361

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:59:17,418 --> 00:59:19,046

Sharon: I mean, I'm a

professor of practice.

:

00:59:19,125 --> 00:59:21,092

Everything for me is about practice.

:

00:59:21,302 --> 00:59:23,939

Practitioners are the

experts I am always going to.

:

00:59:24,133 --> 00:59:24,332

Preston: Right.

:

00:59:24,392 --> 00:59:28,508

Sharon: I don't need a dye-in-the-wool

academic to tell me if a concept- That has

:

00:59:28,508 --> 00:59:32,878

to be in motion, in practice works, right?

:

00:59:32,878 --> 00:59:32,939

Yeah.

:

00:59:32,944 --> 00:59:34,881

They can tell me if a theory's good-

:

00:59:35,071 --> 00:59:35,301

Preston: Yeah

:

00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,706

Sharon: but if you actually wanna

understand working theory, it's all about

:

00:59:39,714 --> 00:59:41,677

practitioners and communities of practice.

:

00:59:41,948 --> 00:59:45,229

We need to dislodge the

understanding that knowledge is

:

00:59:45,230 --> 00:59:47,175

generated just by the academy.

:

00:59:47,316 --> 00:59:47,500

Preston: Right.

:

00:59:47,523 --> 00:59:51,155

Sharon: The real knowledge that the

people you and I work with need is

:

00:59:51,196 --> 00:59:54,284

actually from the communities they are in.

:

00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:54,710

Preston: That's

:

00:59:54,712 --> 00:59:54,722

Sharon: Right?

:

00:59:54,980 --> 00:59:58,131

And it's people like you

and me who become bridges-

:

00:59:58,237 --> 00:59:58,425

Preston: Yeah

:

00:59:58,590 --> 01:00:01,070

… Sharon: almost back to their own

wisdom that's already in their

:

01:00:01,071 --> 01:00:04,289

communities, but they're so busy, as

you've taught me, running the engines,

:

01:00:04,634 --> 01:00:07,879

that they need someone like you to

come in and say, "Wait a second.

:

01:00:07,904 --> 01:00:12,067

Let me look across all these contexts

and see what some of the shared issues

:

01:00:12,068 --> 01:00:14,139

are, some of the problem sets are."

:

01:00:14,139 --> 01:00:19,134

And so I think, yes, of course, it's

nice to have people from academia coming

:

01:00:19,135 --> 01:00:23,686

in and out, but really, the corpus of

what we need to learn for you to do

:

01:00:23,688 --> 01:00:27,350

what you do for the instruct- structure

cadres, for new, you know, people

:

01:00:27,352 --> 01:00:32,788

coming into these roles, is actually to

foreground their own community's wisdom.

:

01:00:32,924 --> 01:00:33,097

Preston: Yeah.

:

01:00:33,139 --> 01:00:33,506

Sharon: Right?

:

01:00:33,737 --> 01:00:39,442

And for that to be the driver of

how they do all the things you

:

01:00:39,443 --> 01:00:41,588

and I are talking about well.

:

01:00:41,892 --> 01:00:42,159

Preston: Yeah.

:

01:00:42,619 --> 01:00:46,202

And, and I think I will start to end us

here, which is just to say, to bring us

:

01:00:46,204 --> 01:00:50,379

back to the very beginning, to those of

you who are listening, you might meet

:

01:00:50,437 --> 01:00:55,072

that profile we talked about, about

greater neurodiversity, where maybe

:

01:00:55,279 --> 01:00:56,991

school wasn't your favorite place.

:

01:00:56,993 --> 01:00:59,549

Maybe you were told that you

weren't that smart or you weren't

:

01:00:59,549 --> 01:01:00,742

living up to your potential.

:

01:01:01,085 --> 01:01:05,358

And then maybe you're hesitant to put

language around what you know to be true.

:

01:01:05,827 --> 01:01:10,085

And I would just really encourage you,

if you're listening, to ignore all that,

:

01:01:10,388 --> 01:01:14,044

to actually recognize that the country-

Agreed … really needs you to think

:

01:01:14,054 --> 01:01:19,497

about and articulate the value, the clear

value that you bring to the world, and

:

01:01:19,504 --> 01:01:23,935

be able to, along with your, your other

members of your community, think about,

:

01:01:24,164 --> 01:01:27,297

"How could I articulate that in a way

that Sharon and Preston would understand?"

:

01:01:27,718 --> 01:01:28,818

And meet us halfway.

:

01:01:29,020 --> 01:01:31,959

And I think you'd be surprised

what extraordinary things are

:

01:01:31,959 --> 01:01:33,340

possible when that happens.

:

01:01:33,410 --> 01:01:35,245

Sharon: I absolutely agree with you.

:

01:01:35,290 --> 01:01:38,290

I mean, that's, that's my

work, that's your work, right?

:

01:01:38,291 --> 01:01:44,580

I think that, you know, we understand

the powerful catalytic wisdom in

:

01:01:44,582 --> 01:01:46,282

these practitioner communities.

:

01:01:46,576 --> 01:01:46,762

Preston: Yeah.

:

01:01:46,837 --> 01:01:51,153

Sharon: And whenever and however we can

harness that, bring it out into the light,

:

01:01:51,723 --> 01:01:58,781

and elevate it, I think that's really

ideally how, how this moves forward.

:

01:01:59,182 --> 01:02:02,747

Preston: So just as our last closing

thoughts, I would ask you, if you think

:

01:02:02,755 --> 01:02:05,450

about the folks that you know that

are out there in the hospitals, or

:

01:02:05,457 --> 01:02:08,739

the schoolhouses, and the instructor

cadres, as instructors, you've worked

:

01:02:08,739 --> 01:02:12,010

with us before and taught in our

courses, what advice might you give?

:

01:02:12,010 --> 01:02:16,038

What's one thing you might say to them to

just think about their practice tomorrow?

:

01:02:16,842 --> 01:02:19,158

Sharon: That's such a powerful question.

:

01:02:19,274 --> 01:02:21,058

Are you being kind to yourself?

:

01:02:21,079 --> 01:02:22,725

Can you notice your self-talk?

:

01:02:22,845 --> 01:02:25,567

Can you notice your self-talk

when you're stressed?

:

01:02:25,751 --> 01:02:26,386

What is it?

:

01:02:26,402 --> 01:02:31,846

Can you notice the old, old messages

you're telling yourself about yourself?

:

01:02:32,258 --> 01:02:33,765

Can you notice those?

:

01:02:34,079 --> 01:02:36,526

Can you think about where they come from?

:

01:02:36,871 --> 01:02:42,559

And in doing so, can you release some of

the more constraining self-narratives you

:

01:02:42,598 --> 01:02:48,156

inherited from other people before you

were old enough to decide if you actually

:

01:02:48,157 --> 01:02:50,032

agreed with these assessments or not?

:

01:02:50,034 --> 01:02:53,810

So I would say really assess and

release that which is not yours

:

01:02:53,850 --> 01:02:55,535

and claim that which is, right?

:

01:02:55,535 --> 01:02:57,936

It's your, it's, it's your

birthright as a child of the

:

01:02:57,936 --> 01:02:59,860

universe to be happy and well.

:

01:03:00,572 --> 01:03:05,611

And so moving into that as a part of

your professional remit so that you

:

01:03:05,611 --> 01:03:10,273

can do all the rest of the good that

you do is, is just of the essence.

:

01:03:10,293 --> 01:03:11,215

You matter, too.

:

01:03:11,365 --> 01:03:14,440

And you matter to you, and you

matter as a child of the universe,

:

01:03:14,622 --> 01:03:15,795

and you matter to your families.

:

01:03:16,050 --> 01:03:18,425

Preston: Yeah, what I often say

to the Americans listening is,

:

01:03:18,431 --> 01:03:20,776

you know, our country was founded

on the pursuit of happiness.

:

01:03:21,094 --> 01:03:22,813

You have a certain

obligation to try to do that.

:

01:03:22,813 --> 01:03:25,628

And if you're unhappy, it's your

responsibility and duty to fix it.

:

01:03:26,248 --> 01:03:26,554

Dr.

:

01:03:26,559 --> 01:03:26,766

Sharon-

:

01:03:26,767 --> 01:03:26,777

Sharon: Exactly.

:

01:03:26,777 --> 01:03:28,954

It's your responsibility and

you need to fix it, but it's

:

01:03:28,954 --> 01:03:30,607

not necessarily your fault.

:

01:03:30,873 --> 01:03:31,293

Preston: That's right.

:

01:03:31,516 --> 01:03:34,997

Sharon: You just have to make

the choice to change it now-

:

01:03:35,183 --> 01:03:35,441

Preston: Yeah

:

01:03:35,940 --> 01:03:36,600

… Sharon: with support.

:

01:03:36,846 --> 01:03:37,123

Preston: Yep.

:

01:03:37,352 --> 01:03:37,621

Dr.

:

01:03:37,621 --> 01:03:40,401

Sharon Ravitch, it's been such an

honor to spend this time with you.

:

01:03:40,402 --> 01:03:41,150

Thank you so much.

:

01:03:41,152 --> 01:03:43,560

I really enjoyed this and, I

look forward to seeing you soon.

:

01:03:44,388 --> 01:03:45,528

Sharon: Preston, thank you so much.

:

01:03:45,528 --> 01:03:48,898

And to everyone listening, thank you

for your service and, and God bless you.

:

01:03:49,208 --> 01:03:49,764

Take care.

:

01:03:53,044 --> 01:03:54,787

Preston: Thank you again for

listening to our Teamcast.

:

01:03:55,301 --> 01:03:57,997

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:

01:03:58,007 --> 01:04:00,331

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:

01:04:18,041 --> 01:04:21,225

Janese Jackson, at janese@missioncti.com.

:

01:04:21,479 --> 01:04:25,662

That's J-A-N-E-S-E@missioncti.com.

:

01:04:25,979 --> 01:04:27,595

Until next time, thanks

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania