Episode 21

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Published on:

19th Oct 2026

S6 Ep21 From Helmand Province to Human Performance

Dr. Jonpaul Nevin is Associate Professor in Human Performance and Health at Buckinghamshire New University and Programme Director of the Tactical Athlete Performance Centre. He joined the Royal Engineers as a sixteen-year-old apprentice, retrained as a physical training instructor, and served nearly fifteen years in the British Army. His last tour, Operation Herrick 10 in Helmand Province in 2009, led to Headley Court, where he went from watching casualties come home to rehabilitating them. He has asked ever since whether the army did everything it could to prepare its soldiers.

Jonpaul and Harry talk how a staff sergeant’s paper on whether the British Army was fit to fight in Afghanistan became an undergraduate degree for physical training instructors, then the MSc in Human Performance Optimisation, and now a PhD pathway.

They also cover why robustness comes before resilience, what cognitive load does to decisions, and why the fied needs doctrine without dogma. Jonpaul argues the people who have lived the work should lead it and provides advice about curiosity and the fundamentals.

If you find value in this discussion, the best way to support our work and stay up to date on future episodes is to subscribe and leave us a quick rating or review. It helps us reach more people who need to hear these conversations.

Transcript
Preston:

Welcome to the Teamcast.

Preston:

I'm Dr.

Preston:

Preston Cline, Director of the Mission Critical Team Institute.

Preston:

Here, we discuss all things mission critical teams.

Preston:

These are teams of four to 12 people indigenously trained and educated who

Preston:

solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive problem sets where the consequence of

Preston:

failure is death or catastrophic loss.

Preston:

With my colleagues and our guests, we bring you insights from combat

Preston:

zones to emergency rooms, dedicated to improving the success, survivability,

Preston:

and sustainability of these teams.

Preston:

We grapple with how to prepare for future events and how to develop

Preston:

language and frameworks to transfer critical, often unspoken, knowledge.

Preston:

Whether you're on a mission critical team or not, we aim to bring you

Preston:

the broadest range of topics and guests as possible to help prepare

Preston:

you to perform when it matters most.

Preston:

Thank you for joining us, and hope you enjoy the Teamcast.

Harry:

G'day, I'm Harry Moffitt.

Harry:

Welcome to the Teamcast.

Harry:

The modern construct of human performance has strong roots in

Harry:

the ancient schoolhouses of the Spartans, known as the Agoge.

Harry:

Here, their rational preparation developed their soldier citizens

Harry:

along physical, psychological, social, and moral dimensions.

Harry:

But as they say, nothing is new under the sun, and it feels as if

Harry:

we're returning to that very ancient holistic approach across the modern

Harry:

mission-critical team community.

Harry:

Today's guest is one of the modern trailblazers in that field.

Harry:

Certainly, he and his team at Buckinghamshire New University in England

Harry:

have assembled a who's who of human performance experts from around the

Harry:

world, including the likes of Professors Michael Matthews and Rob Orr, and they

Harry:

help him to deliver the new Master's in Human Performance Optimization.

Harry:

Dr.

Harry:

Jonpaul Nevin has a very impressive academic profile spanning over two

Harry:

decades of study, research, and writing.

Harry:

But it's his practical experience as a soldier that truly tells his story.

Harry:

From the valleys of the Helmand province in Afghanistan to his rehabilitation

Harry:

work in the trauma wards of Headley Court in the UK, and now as the lead

Harry:

of arguably the only mission-critical team-focused human performance post-grad

Harry:

in the world, I was thrilled to speak with him on the Teamcast today.

Harry:

I hope you enjoy our

Jonpaul:

chat.

Harry:

All right, Jonpaul, thanks for joining me on the

Harry:

on the Teamcast today, mate

Jonpaul:

Oh, thanks for having me, mate.

Jonpaul:

I've been a, a big fan of the Teamcast for for many years, so it's a bit of an honor

Jonpaul:

to be invited on to have a chat with you.

Harry:

Great, mate.

Harry:

I think you got so much to give in terms of what you're doing now not

Harry:

only your past and your service, but where do we find you just so we

Harry:

can place each other in the world?

Jonpaul:

Oh, at the moment, mate, I'm part of what we call the Scottish

Jonpaul:

Diaspora, so I'm down in England just in the, the Dorset-Wiltshire border

Harry:

Excellent.

Harry:

I'm in sunny Melbourne.

Harry:

I believe you've got the good weather up your end.

Harry:

We're just coming out of out of winter down here looking forward to spring.

Harry:

Mate there's a lot of reasons for you to join us today, not- notwithstanding your

Harry:

service, your studies your work in and around those two disciplines or vocations.

Harry:

But it's, it, the, the new program that you've set up there, the Human

Harry:

Performance Program, we're really interested in and we're interested in.

Harry:

We see it as a bit of an emerging kind of area a domain.

Harry:

Didn't exist maybe 15 years ago as a, as anything more

Harry:

than a bit of a thought bubble.

Harry:

But before we get into that give us a bit of background where you've come

Harry:

from on this journey to end up running possibly the only human performance

Harry:

university degree in the world.

Jonpaul:

Yeah, sh- sure.

Jonpaul:

So I'm Associate Professor in Human Performance and Health at

Jonpaul:

Buckinghamshire New University.

Jonpaul:

I'm also the Program Director for something known as the Tactical

Jonpaul:

Athlete Performance Center.

Jonpaul:

Now, my pathway into academia is a little bit different, so

Jonpaul:

I'm what we call a pracademic.

Jonpaul:

So before coming into academia just shy of 10 years ago now I previously served in

Jonpaul:

the British Army for just shy of 15 years.

Jonpaul:

So I initially joined the Corps of Royal Engineers as a 16-year-old way

Jonpaul:

behind the years apprentice in 1997.

Jonpaul:

However, in 2001 I trained as a physical training instructor so basically to

Jonpaul:

deliver physical training at unit level before transferring into the,

Jonpaul:

what was known at that time as the Army Physical Training Corps, where

Jonpaul:

I actually specialized as a PTI.

Jonpaul:

Within that, I had a specialist skill set, so I was what was called the

Jonpaul:

remedial instructor, but they changed the name because it was it had negative

Jonpaul:

connotations around the delivery of beastings- Yeah … so they changed

Jonpaul:

it to a exercise rehab instructor.

Jonpaul:

Which meant obviously d- delivery of physical training was my main

Jonpaul:

effort, but I had this capability to deliver exercise rehab, working

Jonpaul:

very closely with physiotherapists and other allied health professions.

Jonpaul:

Over the duration of my career done several operational tours,

Jonpaul:

my last of which was Operation Herrick 10 during the summer of 2009

Jonpaul:

in Helmand province Afghanistan.

Jonpaul:

The reason why I mention that particular tour is that p- put me on

Jonpaul:

a, a direction of travel which has led me where I am today, arguably- Yeah

Jonpaul:

having a reflect back.

Jonpaul:

Because of the, that tour was our bloodiest tour- we lost somewhere in the

Jonpaul:

region of 118 guys and girls in that.

Jonpaul:

But off the back of it, I was then subsequently posted to the Defense Medical

Jonpaul:

Rehabilitation Center at Headley Court.

Jonpaul:

And my … That was unusual, as I went from a position of almost watching people

Jonpaul:

from point of wounding, CASEVAC, come back to the UK, and then all of a sudden

Jonpaul:

I'm delivering exercise rehab for them.

Jonpaul:

The difference being though this time they're missing a, a couple of legs or if

Jonpaul:

they've sustained a life-changing injury.

Harry:

Wow.

Jonpaul:

And I think when you've had that sort of experience it- It challenges you.

Jonpaul:

You start thinking Fibnow, did we do everything we reasoned we could do to

Jonpaul:

prepare minimum for that environment?

Jonpaul:

Could have we done more?"

Jonpaul:

And so it acted as a bit of a catalyst, but obviously we'll

Jonpaul:

probably go into that in more detail.

Jonpaul:

But yeah, that's a, a brief insight into my background.

Jonpaul:

So obviously military and then shifting into academia

Jonpaul:

and obviously where I am now.

Harry:

Some, some people come out of those experience, Helmand sends

Harry:

a bit of a chill up my spine.

Harry:

I've spent probably two days in vicinity of there we were out further

Harry:

east most of the operational areas.

Harry:

But why does it, why did you- how do you find inspiration that some

Harry:

people are affected negatively?

Harry:

You've managed to turn that into a positive.

Jonpaul:

I would say the tour was a challenge for everyone

Jonpaul:

on it with- without a doubt.

Jonpaul:

It was just the nature of it, the nature of the threat, because we were

Jonpaul:

fixed and obviously a, a huge brigade operation was initiated by 19 Light

Jonpaul:

Brigade, Panchai Palang, to try and clear a lot of insurgent areas, but that

Jonpaul:

meant we had to go on the front foot.

Jonpaul:

And the threat wasn't a kinetic threat like it was in the earlier days.

Jonpaul:

It was the IED threat.

Jonpaul:

The IED threat was through the roof.

Jonpaul:

So you had guys and girls going out the door or out the gate of the FOB and they

Jonpaul:

just didn't know what was going to happen.

Jonpaul:

And I've seen stats where the ratios are really high.

Jonpaul:

There's like a one in three chance that someone's going to stand on an IED.

Jonpaul:

And when you've got those sort of odds, it's going to- Wow … it's

Jonpaul:

going to negatively affect you.

Jonpaul:

And obviously come back with the, off the back of that tour and what

Jonpaul:

was weird, and we were chatting about it just before we came online,

Jonpaul:

you mentioned Edinburgh Tattoo.

Jonpaul:

We came back and I had a couple of weeks away before I went to Headley Court and

Jonpaul:

I went to the tattoo in Edinburgh and you had the, and it hadn't bothered me until

Jonpaul:

that point, but then we had the Lone Piper and the, the, there was something- Wow

Jonpaul:

about the Lone Piper and it was a vig- it went to the vigils because we had to

Jonpaul:

obviously, because of the casualties, we had vigils as well in theater.

Jonpaul:

And the, that really, that was a bit of an arse kicker.

Jonpaul:

In-house, managed to box that, went to Headley Court.

Jonpaul:

In Headley Court, all of a sudden we have all these guys and girls

Jonpaul:

coming in with life-changing injuries predominantly from that tour.

Jonpaul:

There, there's a lag because they went back, they got injured, they get casevaced

Jonpaul:

back to the airamed back to the UK.

Jonpaul:

They go to Selly Oaks Hospital at that point or the, the QE.

Jonpaul:

They'd be stabilized and then they'd come to Headley Court a couple of weeks later.

Jonpaul:

And you'd watch the guys coming in and they had been physically minced.

Jonpaul:

I'm not going to sit on the fence.

Jonpaul:

They were in, in, in a real bad way.

Jonpaul:

And you look at how they dealt with it, right?

Jonpaul:

They've got a choice.

Jonpaul:

It's either I can sit here and wallow in self-pity, or I can draw a line in the

Jonpaul:

sand, move forward and just crack on.

Jonpaul:

And like you might call it a post-traumatic growth.

Jonpaul:

There's obviously a term used quite a lot now.

Jonpaul:

In that setting, you've seen true post-traumatic growth, right?

Jonpaul:

You've seen people saying they accepted where they were.

Jonpaul:

Nothing I can do about it.

Jonpaul:

I can't grow, I can't grow my legs back.

Jonpaul:

I need to crack on."

Jonpaul:

And that created a quite unique environment.

Jonpaul:

And that environment manifested itself not only within the patients,

Jonpaul:

but also within the staff, because then, like we had the motivation.

Jonpaul:

We had the very core motivation of what we, what needed to do to get our guys and

Jonpaul:

girls back to where they wanted to be.

Jonpaul:

But when you seen how the guys and girls responded to their condition

Jonpaul:

and where they were at that time in their life, you're like, fucking hell.

Jonpaul:

Yeah, let's move forwards.

Jonpaul:

And that positivity and that g- that growth mindset, yeah, it just

Jonpaul:

sort of- Manifested itself in.

Jonpaul:

And I think it goes with your, maybe your personality and upbringing as well

Jonpaul:

as all these things are all intertwined.

Jonpaul:

But the tour itself managed to box, but when there's, when you came back in

Jonpaul:

Headley and you had that impact, and you had the bounce to rebound, and you're,

Jonpaul:

yeah, this is a motivat- like you're motivated to do what you want to do.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

But you're seeing people respond to far w- to, to things far worse

Jonpaul:

than you've been through, and you're, yeah, that we can move.

Jonpaul:

So actually a bit of a catalyst.

Jonpaul:

So yeah, I've gone- Yeah … gone on a bit of a tangent there, but

Jonpaul:

that's how I view it upon reflection.

Harry:

No, not at all.

Harry:

It's a powerful inspiration to see people in that situation and and bring,

Harry:

turning up each day in a positive frame of mind or as best they can possibly do.

Harry:

Mate it's amazing and I think that will resonate with a great deal of

Harry:

our audience trauma and adversity and how we respond to that.

Harry:

And really that's what the the institute, the Mission Critical Team

Harry:

Institute exists for and s- part of what we, big part of what we serve.

Harry:

So you you're at Headley Court or you finish at Headley Court.

Harry:

What year are we at here and and where did you go from there?

Jonpaul:

So 2000 and…

Jonpaul:

That was 2009.

Jonpaul:

Herrick's 2009, came off the back, so beginning of September,

Jonpaul:

mid-September 2009 at Headley Court.

Jonpaul:

I was at Headley for about, oof, three, two and a half years.

Jonpaul:

Two and a half years over what we had, we called it the surge.

Jonpaul:

So Herrick 11 was the start, and it didn't get any better in terms

Jonpaul:

of casualties coming back, so up until around Herrick 15 for us.

Jonpaul:

So it was a busy period.

Jonpaul:

But I got involved in some charity work doing some really cool things.

Jonpaul:

So we had a program called Operation Surf.

Jonpaul:

So we took some of our wounded over to the Central Coast in California

Jonpaul:

to surf as a rehab vehicle.

Jonpaul:

And I'm not going to lie, it was rubbish, worst trip I've ever been in my life.

Jonpaul:

But no, it was it was a privilege to run that from the UK perspective.

Jonpaul:

And then we went back to America.

Jonpaul:

We'd done something called Race Across America so just a small

Jonpaul:

3,000-mile bike race, Yeah … from Oceanside to Annapolis, so we

Jonpaul:

took a, a wounded team on that.

Jonpaul:

Eight participants with seven legs between them.

Jonpaul:

And that was brilliant, but that introduced me obviously to the,

Jonpaul:

to to the charitable sector.

Jonpaul:

And I was approached, headhunted almost, by a, a charity in

Jonpaul:

the UK called Help for Heroes.

Jonpaul:

And the guy that set Help for Heroes up, a guy called Bryn Parry

Jonpaul:

he's unfortunately left us now.

Jonpaul:

Bryn approached me and said, "Look, Fippin, I want to create

Jonpaul:

a recovery setup for the wounded.

Jonpaul:

Obviously we're brilliant, we've got rehab, but what happens when they leave?"

Jonpaul:

So the- … I was approached by them and offered the opportunity to go and work

Jonpaul:

within what we call defense recovery, the next step supporting our guys and

Jonpaul:

girls a- as they re-evl- reorientate back to life and find a new direction.

Jonpaul:

So it was a bit of a, a unique offer.

Jonpaul:

Yeah, so I took that.

Jonpaul:

So it's- I left the military in 2012, but I didn't, if that makes sense.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

So I was no longer wear- wearing green, but I was still working in a

Jonpaul:

military environment- Okay … I was still working the military style, and

Jonpaul:

I was still working with military.

Jonpaul:

So I was there for a couple of years, and the OPSERV continued which was brilliant.

Jonpaul:

Obviously we'd done- had Invictus Games, so I was a lead coach for the cycling

Jonpaul:

in the Invictus Games, the British team.

Jonpaul:

We'd done the RAM again in 2017 just for the lols, and then shifted into academia.

Jonpaul:

I'd always wanted to…

Jonpaul:

I- I've always been quite curious, especially intellectually curious.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

So I took up a position at Buckinghamshire New University as a

Jonpaul:

part-time lecturer, senior lecturer, sorry, in strength and conditioning.

Jonpaul:

And then things just developed from there, and then there, there was a gradual

Jonpaul:

phase shift where I overlapped the two roles and then moved into academia.

Jonpaul:

Moving into academia from obviously a military background, especially with

Jonpaul:

obviously what we'd been experienced over that decade, was a bit of a challenge.

Jonpaul:

I was a bit like a bull- Yeah … in a China shop to begin with.

Jonpaul:

But it's an environment where I've, when I've settled down, I feel very

Jonpaul:

comfortable within, and it's and obviously the, my university, BNU, have

Jonpaul:

been very accommodating and allowed us to develop TAPC, 'cause I think a

Jonpaul:

lot of institutions wouldn't have ex- exploited this opportunity, they wouldn't

Jonpaul:

have supported it for various reasons.

Jonpaul:

But BNU was just the right institution, so it was…

Jonpaul:

That, that was fortune.

Jonpaul:

So yeah, that, that's Again, going off on a bit of a tangent, but

Jonpaul:

that was the sort of progression.

Harry:

Not at all.

Harry:

So TAPC, just remind the listeners that, what TAPC, and tell us where the…

Harry:

where did the, where was the, what's the origin story of what

Harry:

is now a, a, a master's degree?

Harry:

But when did you kinda go, "This is what I wanna do to-

Harry:

Yeah … address the gap I sense?"

Jonpaul:

So TAPC itself is a center which we've developed within Buckinghamshire

Jonpaul:

University and our aim is to enhance the education, health, and occupational

Jonpaul:

performance of those who operate in the extreme's context to the diffusion

Jonpaul:

of education innovation, pragmatic applied research, and the development

Jonpaul:

of mutual beneficial partnerships.

Jonpaul:

So that's our objective.

Jonpaul:

Now, where did it all come from?

Jonpaul:

It comes- it started during that Herrick tour, which I've already mentioned.

Jonpaul:

Myself and another colleague who works with me now Joe Foreshew, we used to

Jonpaul:

sit grab a brew and we used to chat about how the guys and girls weren't

Jonpaul:

prepared for the physical demands of that operational environment.

Jonpaul:

And I will argue strongly to this day that we were tried and we were

Jonpaul:

tested, and we were found wanting in regards to our physical preparedness.

Jonpaul:

Now, when we were out there, we had a really bad day early June.

Jonpaul:

I think we lost nine people in what, a single incident, up in Mushdn, in Sangin.

Jonpaul:

And it affected everyone, and the next day, a team from headquarters,

Jonpaul:

APTC, came on the battlefield tour.

Jonpaul:

But that's what it felt like to me.

Jonpaul:

They were out fact-finding, seeing what we were up to.

Jonpaul:

And I always remember it, 'cause I looked at them and their kit was immaculate,

Jonpaul:

it had just came out the packet, and you know when you've got that really fine dust

Jonpaul:

from Afghan, and you're caked in it, and then they're turning up in this fresh kit.

Jonpaul:

And a certain individual, who became a very strong supporter

Jonpaul:

of me afterwards came into the gym and he said, "Oh, hi, Stav.

Jonpaul:

Yep, w- we're preparing the guys and girls well for the demands of theater."

Jonpaul:

And I looked at him there, I literally said to him, "Are we fuck?"

Jonpaul:

Excuse my language.

Jonpaul:

And we'd just went off on a b- I went off on a tangent, and in the back of my

Jonpaul:

head I was like that's my career over," 'cause he was a lieutenant colonel.

Jonpaul:

And he's like, if you feel that strongly about it, write about it."

Jonpaul:

And I was like, "All right, I will."

Jonpaul:

'Cause I was doing my undergrad degree at the same time, I'd paused it.

Jonpaul:

But i- in our location there was a team from Defense Science and Technology

Jonpaul:

Laboratory, DSTL, and every morning I used to go in and see them in their pod,

Jonpaul:

and they'd be, "Hey, morning geeks."

Jonpaul:

As t- being flippant.

Jonpaul:

But I got to know them real well and understand what DSTL does, and how

Jonpaul:

DSTL supports defense within the UK.

Jonpaul:

And I went through and said guys, I've been challenged with this," and

Jonpaul:

they supported me, they helped me.

Jonpaul:

A, and a p- a particular individual, Rene Navola, guided me to write

Jonpaul:

this article, Is the British Army Fit to Fight in Afghan?:

Jonpaul:

Optimizing Physical Performance for Dismounted Close Combat.

Jonpaul:

Now, I was halfway through this piece- Came back.

Jonpaul:

Obviously, we've got the stuff where I talked about was in the tattoo.

Jonpaul:

Went to Headley Court.

Jonpaul:

Obviously, the, the…

Jonpaul:

Everything's rolling there.

Jonpaul:

And if you want a catalyst to motivate you to write , you're

Jonpaul:

not gonna get any stronger.

Jonpaul:

And I put- Yeah … my heart and soul into this paper.

Jonpaul:

Absolutely everything I had.

Jonpaul:

And I sent it up the chain.

Jonpaul:

It got to HQ Army picked it up, and it got promulgated out.

Jonpaul:

And before you know it, it's been real well received.

Jonpaul:

I'm getting pulled in for discussions way above my pay grade

Jonpaul:

as a staff sergeant this time.

Jonpaul:

And the ball's rolling.

Jonpaul:

Now, my focus then started to shift to more obviously what I

Jonpaul:

was doing for rehab and recovery.

Jonpaul:

But all of a sudden, the PT core started pulling me in, right?

Jonpaul:

"What's your thoughts on this?

Jonpaul:

What's your thoughts on that?"

Jonpaul:

All right, fair enough.

Jonpaul:

Even as I left, I was still getting pulled in.

Jonpaul:

And that was quite humbling, to be honest, that my voice, they were prepared to

Jonpaul:

listen to my voice and what I had to say.

Jonpaul:

But I still had…

Jonpaul:

One of the discussions that we had, myself and Joe, when we

Jonpaul:

were in in, in the theater was sure there's a better way, right?

Jonpaul:

We need to train our PTIs a better way- Yeah

Jonpaul:

because they're the ones who are fundamentally responsible for

Jonpaul:

preparing our guys and girls.

Jonpaul:

And we had these ideas in the back of the head, in the back of our heads.

Jonpaul:

And to cut a long story short, fast forward five years, I was catching up

Jonpaul:

with other individuals in the PT core.

Jonpaul:

Now, PT core is a bit of a u- unique entity within the British military in

Jonpaul:

that we do not have direct entry officers.

Jonpaul:

All our officers come through the ranks.

Jonpaul:

Now, that has its inherent strengths, and it has its inherent limitations.

Jonpaul:

But it just so happens that a lot of my peer group are starting

Jonpaul:

to get commissioned and moving into positions of influence.

Jonpaul:

And we were chatting about what was happening for the education

Jonpaul:

provision in the core at that time.

Jonpaul:

So within the PT core to gain, to enhance your promotion

Jonpaul:

prospects, you need a degree.

Jonpaul:

And if you want a commission, arguably you need a master's.

Jonpaul:

And th- that…

Jonpaul:

indeed, that's how I got into academia.

Jonpaul:

The PT core put me in an undergraduate degree, and obviously

Jonpaul:

I've progressed from there.

Jonpaul:

And they were tied in with another university, and we all had a few

Jonpaul:

beers, and that's what I flippantly said, because I'd only just

Jonpaul:

started to be in new at this time-

Jonpaul:

so I'm quite fresh in the door.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

"How cool would it be if we could develop a bespoke undergrad program for PTIs?"

Jonpaul:

So my- There we are … a, a degree program for PTIs by PTIs.

Jonpaul:

That'd be awesome if we could do that.

Jonpaul:

Cut a long story short, that's what we went ahead and did.

Jonpaul:

So we took the proposal to university.

Jonpaul:

It just so happens that the university is raising detritus to support the

Jonpaul:

needs of public service and industry.

Jonpaul:

Turns out they had the military engagement strategy from a previous

Jonpaul:

call week who had been forward-thinking.

Jonpaul:

He'd codified this.

Jonpaul:

So what I

Harry:

did- So they're looking for, they're looking for

Harry:

opportunities that you've got

Jonpaul:

Yeah, ex-exactly that.

Jonpaul:

And their big-- And at that point, it was as long as you don't

Jonpaul:

lose money, you crack on, son.

Jonpaul:

Like you, you-- If you c- if you've got a niche here and you think

Jonpaul:

it can be a benefit, go for it.

Jonpaul:

And it wasn't necessarily this…

Jonpaul:

It wasn't the financial element.

Jonpaul:

It's it wasn't about making money.

Jonpaul:

It was more about the civic good.

Jonpaul:

It's about enhancing UK PLC- Yeah … and that's the element to it.

Jonpaul:

So we went ahead and we developed a BSC on their strength and

Jonpaul:

conditioning in tactical populations.

Jonpaul:

And that, that program's seven years down the line now.

Jonpaul:

And let's see.

Jonpaul:

That's still the only program of its type.

Jonpaul:

There isn't a comparable in the world.

Jonpaul:

But it's only open to physical training-- royal army physical

Jonpaul:

training corps instructors and their equivalents from the Royal Navy, Royal

Jonpaul:

Marines, and the Royal Air Force.

Jonpaul:

Which means that the cohort each year is relatively small.

Jonpaul:

It's only around 10 students.

Jonpaul:

But what…

Jonpaul:

That, that program was the genesis then for TAPC, because that program, we

Jonpaul:

got it developed, we got it validated.

Jonpaul:

It had very unique cer- contextual relevance to the

Jonpaul:

requirements of service PTIs.

Jonpaul:

So it wasn't just a generic sports science strength and conditioning degree.

Jonpaul:

It was a strength and conditioning degree developed around the knowledge which

Jonpaul:

they needed to have a downstream effect to enhance operational effectiveness.

Jonpaul:

So we had proof of concept.

Jonpaul:

And I was catching up with a call where you can mention how cool would it be

Jonpaul:

if we could develop something like the Tactical Research Unit with…

Jonpaul:

Or down in Bond University- Yeah … in Australia.

Jonpaul:

Rob's running, Rob, Professor Robbo.

Jonpaul:

And they said, "Do you know what?

Jonpaul:

That'd be…

Jonpaul:

That sounds a good idea.

Jonpaul:

I like this.

Jonpaul:

Let's roll with it."

Jonpaul:

So we took a proposal up to senior management team at uni.

Jonpaul:

Can we develop a, a conceptual s- this, this center within the what was the school

Jonpaul:

at that time are now colleges to support, which is a progression from the undergrad.

Jonpaul:

And they said, "Okay, yeah, we'll support that.

Jonpaul:

We like that.

Jonpaul:

You've demonstrated proof of concept."

Jonpaul:

So we developed the undergrad.

Jonpaul:

We had the undergrad rolling, but we needed the master's.

Jonpaul:

And they were like, "What's your master's going to be?"

Jonpaul:

And Obviously, I've got an undergrad in strength and conditioning,

Jonpaul:

a master's in strength and conditioning, full accredited.

Jonpaul:

Strength and conditioning isn't rocket science, and I apologize

Jonpaul:

any strength and conditioning coaches are out there, like- Our

Harry:

what?

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

Our profession is important and it's a, but it's about people and-

Jonpaul:

Yeah … but as long as we can work and coach people we're good.

Jonpaul:

But it didn't make sense to have a master's on it c- 'cause the

Jonpaul:

my, my own journey reflected the two programs are very similar.

Jonpaul:

Yeah, you could argue you're going in more depth, but it just didn't sit right.

Jonpaul:

And I was going to Quebec for a conference.

Jonpaul:

It was the International Congress of Soldier Physical Performance.

Jonpaul:

And on the flight over, started reading the book Human Performance Optimization:

Jonpaul:

The Science and Ethics of Enhancing Human Performance by Professor Mike

Jonpaul:

Matthews who was at West Point.

Jonpaul:

And when I read this book, it was one of those books you read it once 'cause

Jonpaul:

it's a bit of a heavy text, and you're like, "I'm reading this bad boy again."

Jonpaul:

Read it again.

Jonpaul:

Not all in one flight, by the way.

Jonpaul:

It took a bit longer than that.

Jonpaul:

And the penny dropped because I'd also been tracking this c- this idea of HPO

Jonpaul:

from obviously the work I'd done around the Fit to Fight paper back in 2009, 2010.

Jonpaul:

So I'd always had this bead, but this book pulled it all together,

Jonpaul:

and I was like, "This might be the way to go for a master's."

Jonpaul:

And then funny enough, in Quebec, the same colleagues from DSTL who'd been

Jonpaul:

in Afghan were there, and we were chatting, chewing the fat again over

Jonpaul:

a beer- Yeah … in sunny Quebec.

Jonpaul:

No, it wasn't sunny, actually.

Jonpaul:

Baltic is frozen.

Jonpaul:

The Or- the Orange River is frozen.

Jonpaul:

And I mentioned to them what we're thinking about doing, and they're like

Jonpaul:

this is an area of interest for us because human augmentation's coming online quick."

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

"But there's no point in investing billions of pounds into these

Jonpaul:

exquisite technologies if we've not dialed in the human system first."

Jonpaul:

So then we started having a, a, a dialogue.

Jonpaul:

And then from there, said, "Let's see if we can develop an MSC in

Jonpaul:

human performance optimization."

Jonpaul:

So myself and Martin Jones who you've spoke to.

Jonpaul:

Martin was at DSTL at the time.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

Martin we worked together to s- to develop the framework for this MSC program.

Jonpaul:

And then we said what about in terms of indicative content?

Jonpaul:

It's not a case of us telling defense what it needs," 'cause bear in mind,

Jonpaul:

we're focused upon defense at this point.

Jonpaul:

"Why don't we get them on board and find out what they think they need?

Jonpaul:

Let, let's reverse engineer this whole thing."

Harry:

Have you at this stage, is there any other programs ar- around the

Harry:

world that you can go and pick at, or are you're just blazing the trail here

Harry:

i- in this m- what is more holistic approach to the whole of the organism?

Jonpaul:

At that point, nothing.

Jonpaul:

There was nothing at all.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

And what was different was we, each of the … So what we did

Jonpaul:

was we ident- we looked at HPO.

Jonpaul:

We needed to define it first.

Jonpaul:

The definition we used was the use of science and … The, the

Jonpaul:

DSTL definition was use of science and technology to enhance human

Jonpaul:

performance capabilities up to the limit of one's biological potential.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

And then the, the definition for human augmentation is the use of science

Jonpaul:

and technology to enhance human performance capabilities beyond the

Jonpaul:

limit of one's biological potential.

Jonpaul:

So we had that definition.

Harry:

That's a great definition.

Harry:

Just say that again, please, mate.

Harry:

That's a, just a, the most elegant way I've heard it described.

Harry:

But so if you just say that again for us.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

So the use of science and technology to enhance human performance

Jonpaul:

capabilities up to the limit of one's biological potential.

Jonpaul:

And w- but I think what was good, we then had the definitions.

Jonpaul:

Okay what about how are we then going to structure it?

Jonpaul:

Now, I know you've got the biopsychosocial model of human

Jonpaul:

per- of performance in, Engel's (biopsychosocial) model, but that was

Jonpaul:

a wee bit too simplistic for our needs.

Jonpaul:

So what we started to do is look at what, what could be key domains of

Jonpaul:

each, of human performance optimization.

Jonpaul:

And at the same time, the US military were just beginning to roll out the Holistic

Jonpaul:

Force Fitness program or their- Yeah

Jonpaul:

their HPO doctrine.

Jonpaul:

So we were d- jumping on the coattails of that to a degree,

Jonpaul:

but that gave us direction because then okay, what about domains?

Jonpaul:

Can we align these domains to modules?

Jonpaul:

So so optimize the physical readiness, apply performance psychology, optimize

Jonpaul:

human cognitive capabilities, sleeps, advanced performance nutrition, sleep

Jonpaul:

science, and then contemporary issues in human performance optimization,

Jonpaul:

which is a bit of a, a broad module, but essentially we're feeding into

Jonpaul:

the realm of human augmentation.

Jonpaul:

But then that, what we realized is if we go down that line, we have these

Jonpaul:

domains of HPO, and then we can- Yeah … stratify indicative content within that.

Jonpaul:

So what we then did was we got all the key stakeholders down.

Jonpaul:

So all the PT branches in British military, in you

Jonpaul:

come, we'll give you lunch.

Jonpaul:

Certain special assignments within UK defense, come on

Jonpaul:

down, we'll give you lunch.

Jonpaul:

DSTL, come on, get them all in the room.

Jonpaul:

This is HPO.

Jonpaul:

This is a concept, these domains.

Jonpaul:

What knowledge do you think we need?

Jonpaul:

And we went through this quite an iterative process of identifying

Jonpaul:

what they felt they needed.

Jonpaul:

Some of it g- was good ideas, some of it was maybe not.

Jonpaul:

But we stratified it down, and then that gave us the indicative content which we

Jonpaul:

felt we were gonna need for the program.

Jonpaul:

And then we looked at it and thought, "Shit, there's no

Jonpaul:

way we can deliver this."

Jonpaul:

In fact, there's probably no university in the world that's

Jonpaul:

gonna have this breadth of content breadth of knowledge or expertise.

Jonpaul:

So Martin went Martin had a brainwave and basically said do you know what?

Jonpaul:

Why don't we go big or go home?"

Jonpaul:

He was the NATO human factors lead at that time for the UK, and he

Jonpaul:

said, "Let's identify the best people who we know within these, these

Jonpaul:

areas, and let's just approach them.

Jonpaul:

I'll do the intro, and you can kick the door in because you're

Jonpaul:

quite passionate about this."

Jonpaul:

And that's what we did.

Jonpaul:

And o- and off we went, and it was like a snowball effect.

Jonpaul:

And I think in the first roll-round, we ended up with 33 guest speakers from

Jonpaul:

around the world, and obviously then as it evolved, we got yourself on board,

Jonpaul:

we got Preston on board a- and others.

Jonpaul:

And what that then created was what I feel was the USP of the program.

Jonpaul:

This div- so we have the structure, but it's the diversity of the thought and

Jonpaul:

knowledge, and sometimes obviously the arg- the guest speakers who come onto

Jonpaul:

the program, they challenge others.

Jonpaul:

So again, it's just that diversity of thought, diversity of opinion.

Jonpaul:

So key.

Jonpaul:

But we were on the roll then, and I thought, "Do you know what?

Jonpaul:

Now I'm m- if we're going big or go home, I'm g- I'm going

Jonpaul:

to go for the head honcho."

Jonpaul:

So Professor Mike Matthews, who I mentioned, I dropped Mike an email.

Jonpaul:

Now, Mike's a professor at West Point, quite a prestigious

Jonpaul:

institution in the States.

Harry:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

And you think, "There's no way he's going to get back to me.

Jonpaul:

He's going to chin me off."

Harry:

He's like,

Harry:

" Jonpaul: Who's this little jumpstart?"

Harry:

And he got back to me within a couple of hours, and he said, "I'd be

Harry:

delighted to look at your program."

Harry:

So we sent him the information, and, Commended us on our efforts.

Harry:

Mega take, that's a tick in the box.

Harry:

He said we're 95% of the way there, gave us a few pointers and then

Harry:

s- then said he'd be delighted to be a guest speaker on the program.

Harry:

And all, and on he came.

Harry:

And now we have Mike- Oh, yeah … emirates professor now Mike Matthews

Harry:

as a visiting professor for us.

Harry:

But that, when you got that level of prestige it just opened additional doors.

Harry:

And then we have that, we've got additional colleagues Dr.

Harry:

Carl Friedl from Usarium and so on.

Harry:

There's, and but it was nuts.

Harry:

It was, and it was an organic evolution.

Harry:

We created the framework.

Harry:

We planted the seeds.

Harry:

And bringing the people on board, they obviously, they grew as the

Harry:

plants to create the program, to create the garden which we've got.

Harry:

Which is crazy.

Harry:

And I look back and people say, "Oh, did you, was that the plan?"

Harry:

I say, "No, it was we evolved.

Harry:

We identified opportunities, and we exploited those

Harry:

opportunities aggressively.

Harry:

The university supported us, and boom, there we go.

Harry:

We've got this , this world leading MSC in Human Performance Optimization program

Harry:

with this, this golden thread throughout."

Harry:

And that, and we've maintained it, and we've really punched it.

Harry:

And the, the knowledge which we are giving to the guys and girls

Harry:

who come on the program needs to be applicable in the real world context.

Harry:

If it's not, it is about as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

Harry:

The theory's- Yeah … important, yes.

Harry:

But more importantly, how do we apply that theory to make our people better?

Harry:

Yeah, I think I've said it when I've had the pleasure and honor

Harry:

of of being a speaker on the program.

Harry:

What I'm interested in, I think what you're saying is the evidence is important

Harry:

and yes but not so much interested in the evidence as we are what's evident

Harry:

to the operators and and their needs.

Harry:

And often their language too because I know as a knuckle-dragging grunt

Harry:

back in the day the theory and the academics scare you, and you take a, a

Harry:

path around big words and big concepts.

Harry:

But I think if you can sit and listen to operators, you can s- soon tell

Harry:

them that their intuitive endogenous mental models et cetera actually have

Harry:

a, an academic firmament which which is interesting to them, and I think

Harry:

it's a much healthier discussion.

Harry:

And the human performance, the masters I remember first hearing about it.

Harry:

I thought, "Someone's really moving the needle on this and doing something

Harry:

that's long been needed," not only for military, but this has so much

Harry:

relevance in other mission-critical teams from medicine and police, tactical

Harry:

policing and fire and rescue, et cetera.

Harry:

And I think for the first time, it's a dramatic way to put it, but

Harry:

I think for the first time we're starting to treat the whole organism,

Harry:

as I said, the whole human being.

Harry:

And that has so many downstream benefits that most … You talked

Harry:

about Operation Surf and Race Around America and, or Race Across America

Harry:

and other charity, military charities.

Harry:

They're addressing the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, and this, I

Harry:

hope and I think and I'm, I believe is part of the solution is we can do so

Harry:

much more upstream and still present an excellent operator, whether that be a

Harry:

war-fighting platform, as they're called.

Harry:

And you know how I feel about the mechanistic kind of view of humans.

Harry:

But there's a reality that we need to train people to fight, to war- train war

Harry:

fighters in the military context at least.

Harry:

Mate, what y- how, so what iteration are you up to with the course,

Harry:

the masters program at the moment?

Jonpaul:

The undergrads is in its seventh iteration.

Jonpaul:

The master's program this year starting will be the fourth iteration.

Jonpaul:

All right … and it's e- and it's evolved nicely because what we've

Jonpaul:

done is we've not stood still.

Jonpaul:

We didn't, obviously, as we developed it, the first year it rolled out because

Jonpaul:

of the diversity of speakers, 'cause there's so many guest speakers on it.

Jonpaul:

We were building the plane in flight, so to speak.

Jonpaul:

So we knew what we were after, and obviously we got everyone on board.

Jonpaul:

And w- I think what was really cool and humbling is a lot of the guest

Jonpaul:

speakers did it pro bono which was cool.

Jonpaul:

And obviously some for a small fee, and that, that's fine.

Jonpaul:

But what was brilliant is then if someone's doing it pro bono, obviously

Jonpaul:

you can't put pressure on them.

Jonpaul:

They're doing you a, a massive solid.

Jonpaul:

But we built it and we identified areas for, okay, w- development, what

Jonpaul:

we can add, what we can remove, and then we've tweaked it and adjusted it.

Jonpaul:

So a good example is yourself, mate, when you came on last year and

Jonpaul:

obviously for Moving Forwards, is having that, that capstone lecture on

Jonpaul:

the importance of philosophy in HPO.

Jonpaul:

That, that's an example of an evolution which has supported the program.

Jonpaul:

And there's other ways we're tweaking it.

Jonpaul:

And I think that's, if, we should never be standing still.

Jonpaul:

We should always be evolving and keeping in line with obviously developments.

Jonpaul:

But obviously focusing upon the fundamental element.

Jonpaul:

There is a fundamental core of content to the program.

Jonpaul:

So I suppose that, that's where it's developed really nicely.

Jonpaul:

What's been a really cool development, and it was always an aspiration,

Jonpaul:

was to create a pathway to PhDs.

Jonpaul:

And now we have our first PhD starting this year.

Jonpaul:

So Mr.

Jonpaul:

Henry Brewster.

Jonpaul:

So Henry, I'm, I am giving you a shout-out.

Jonpaul:

Congratulations.

Harry:

Henry- I know that's a massive…

Harry:

No, but that's a massive kind of step, isn't it, in terms of academic

Harry:

route into the operator or the the, the yeah, the operator world.

Jonpaul:

Oh, for sure.

Jonpaul:

The best thing is Henry was a ex-Royal Marine, PTI.

Harry:

Yep.

Jonpaul:

He'd done our undergraduate program.

Jonpaul:

He was a bit crazy, done our master's, rolled straight onto it.

Jonpaul:

Handed his chit in with the Royal Marines and then we managed to poach

Jonpaul:

him and get him on board as a lecturer.

Jonpaul:

So it gives us- Great … it gives us obviously a bit of redundancy which is

Jonpaul:

brilliant, and contextual relevance.

Jonpaul:

But now he's rolling onto a PhD on load carriage, potential looking how we can

Jonpaul:

optimize load carriage performance.

Jonpaul:

And indeed we've both had plenty of experience with that.

Jonpaul:

So is there a better way?

Jonpaul:

And I think for that sort of PhD, it'll be brilliant.

Jonpaul:

But it just…

Jonpaul:

What's great now is we've had this undergraduate program, which was

Jonpaul:

born from an experience and an idea.

Jonpaul:

We've got the master's program, both of which are quite unique.

Jonpaul:

Now we've got the PhDs, and we've we've created this loop which is brilliant.

Jonpaul:

It's brilliant to see.

Jonpaul:

And I think when the time comes for the final reorg I'm certain we'll be

Jonpaul:

chuffed with that little piece of work.

Harry:

Yeah that's great.

Harry:

It's a great credit, mate.

Harry:

I have a insight into firstly how hard it is just to do anything

Harry:

outside the box as an OR in defense.

Harry:

And anything this size, we have a humble…

Harry:

the, the, the, the unit in Perth has a humble education program, and

Harry:

with all the resistance that, you know what, we don't need educated

Harry:

soldiers and all this type of stuff.

Harry:

But but you just find a way to work through single issue zealotry, I

Harry:

think it's sometimes referred to.

Harry:

They're important.

Harry:

They make the world go around.

Harry:

And I'm glad and proud to say that we've got we've had one

Harry:

person register out of Perth that they, as they've exited defense.

Harry:

And I know that there's more back there recently, and there's

Harry:

some questions around it.

Harry:

So you might…

Harry:

What happens if you start to get a c- an avalanche of people

Harry:

signing up for the course, mate?

Harry:

Is there an expansion, kinda world domination- No, I think-

Harry:

University alliances or…

Jonpaul:

No I think for us it's about creating high quality programs of study

Jonpaul:

which are sustainable over the long term.

Jonpaul:

But that, that- Yeah … that's a big thing, a big if- if not, y- as long…

Jonpaul:

F- from a university perspective, as long as we don't lose money, they're

Jonpaul:

happy to support, which is brilliant.

Jonpaul:

Especially given the, the current state of play within academia within the UK.

Jonpaul:

But it's to create a real high quality program of study and to create a community

Jonpaul:

of practice whereby we bring people together who are like-minded, who have

Jonpaul:

experiences, and you can bounce ideas and share knowledge, but also to cooperate

Jonpaul:

with other like-minded institutions.

Jonpaul:

Obviously with yourselves, Mission Critical Team Institute, you guys

Jonpaul:

support us in a brilliant way, and obviously that, that experience

Jonpaul:

you have and bringing it to life.

Jonpaul:

We work very closely with the Tactical Research Unit at Bond

Jonpaul:

University and Professor Rob Orr.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

And also with the University of Chichester and the Occupational Performance Research

Jonpaul:

Group down there with Professor Sam Blacker and Professor Steve Myers.

Jonpaul:

So we're this sort of, what we'll try out of academic institutions, but also

Jonpaul:

other international organizations, University of Pittsburgh, potentially

Jonpaul:

University- Baylor University.

Jonpaul:

And it's trying to just create a, a, a community where we work together.

Jonpaul:

And we obviously, education's our main effort, always will be, but

Jonpaul:

then to conduct maybe joint applied pragmatic research, and we've got

Jonpaul:

quite a unique mechanism to do that within defense and within the UK.

Jonpaul:

So yeah, I think for us it's sustainment and obviously

Jonpaul:

maintaining those relationships and developing those relationships.

Jonpaul:

But it's funny though, you, you mentioned obviously individuals

Jonpaul:

coming up from Perth, and I think we've got a, a Australian cabal

Jonpaul:

coming on the program this year.

Jonpaul:

So I think we've got three from Australia.

Jonpaul:

Excellent … so one's obviously one's Army, one's Navy, and one's Fire

Jonpaul:

Service, which is brilliant to see.

Jonpaul:

Obviously, and it's it shows that obviously how, what we're thinking and

Jonpaul:

some of our ideas and concepts and the knowledge which we've pulled together from

Jonpaul:

around the world is gonna obviously then go down under and be a benefit to them.

Harry:

Fantastic.

Harry:

I think I know the, I think it's Sam from the Fire who's- Yeah … yeah,

Harry:

he's another f- super passionate guy, and accelerating fast into the space.

Harry:

And it's in good hands, I think, as it grows.

Harry:

Mate you sit i- in a, it's a rare position globally, i- particularly in

Harry:

the mission critical team community.

Harry:

We you've talked a little bit about the physiology and the path there,

Harry:

and how that, that, that's the s- a, a starting point if I can put it like that.

Harry:

What else are you seeing at the moment emerging into the human performance space?

Harry:

And any, anything that's surprising you at the moment in terms of the, you talked

Harry:

about the domains that you've broken up.

Harry:

Is that still solid in your mind, and what are you seeing across those domains?

Harry:

Y-

Jonpaul:

yeah, I feel those, th- having that, those e- u- utilizing

Jonpaul:

those recognized domains as well c- works well 'cause it stratifies

Jonpaul:

you and allows you to focus on specific interventions within them.

Jonpaul:

So if we look at the psychology domain, for example.

Jonpaul:

A Professor Nathalie Pattyn, who does some work for us over in Belgium.

Jonpaul:

Nathalie's got this brilliant emerging concept which I agree with.

Jonpaul:

She calls it the three Rs.

Jonpaul:

So everyone at one, everyone punches on about resilience, and resilience

Jonpaul:

to me implies you've been knocked on your arse and you're bouncing back.

Jonpaul:

If I keep it in layman's terms.

Jonpaul:

But Nathalie's idea is we need to be ready- We need to be robust

Jonpaul:

and we need to be resilient.

Jonpaul:

Because if we're in a fight, I don't want to get knocked on my arse.

Jonpaul:

If I get knocked on my arse, I'm gonna get filled in.

Jonpaul:

I want to be robust enough to take the hit.

Jonpaul:

And using that analogy, if we think about in extremist context, we need to

Jonpaul:

be robust to deal with the stressors which we are going to get hit with.

Jonpaul:

But we also need to accept that eventually those…

Jonpaul:

We can be robust, we can be solid like an oak tree, but we

Jonpaul:

might get knocked on our arse.

Jonpaul:

And at that point, can we bounce back?

Jonpaul:

And this- so it's taking this idea of resilience, but building it up

Jonpaul:

and thinking- Yeah … okay, c- how do we make our people robust?

Jonpaul:

And I…

Jonpaul:

And this is where we need to look back to the past, what's

Jonpaul:

been done by our forefathers.

Jonpaul:

Because from a military perspective, and you know far better than I, there

Jonpaul:

are certain ways to develop robustness through tough, arduous training applied

Jonpaul:

in the right time, the right context.

Jonpaul:

And it's very easy to throw that out the wa- throw that out the window, say,

Jonpaul:

"Oh, there isn't a place for that."

Jonpaul:

There is, in my opinion.

Jonpaul:

And I think not always

Harry:

con- No, couldn't ag- couldn't agree more.

Harry:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jonpaul:

Yeah, without a doubt, right?

Jonpaul:

And we need adversity, right?

Jonpaul:

You…

Jonpaul:

If we don't have adversity, how are we gonna be forged?

Jonpaul:

And I think not always trying to create a framework to provide

Jonpaul:

the justification for it.

Jonpaul:

Now, that feeds real and nice into the concept like stress inoculation training.

Jonpaul:

So stress inoculation training we need to have a stressor first to relate

Jonpaul:

to before you can develop mental skills to to think about how you

Jonpaul:

can deal with that stressor better.

Jonpaul:

And if you think in the military, I'm sure you can remember your

Jonpaul:

first ever beasting, right?

Jonpaul:

I can remember- Yeah … clear as day.

Jonpaul:

If you have…

Jonpaul:

If I had that done over to me again now, it'd be fine 'cause

Jonpaul:

I've- I can cope with it.

Jonpaul:

But as a 16-year-old, having that good news, that was like flipping

Jonpaul:

hell shocking, I'll get some sunshine.

Jonpaul:

But re- but I can re- but we can reflect upon it.

Jonpaul:

And I say it flippantly.

Jonpaul:

It's almost as a justification for a beasting at times.

Jonpaul:

But to develop that.

Jonpaul:

So that's one area of, I think, is real acute within the, the

Jonpaul:

psycho- the psychological domain.

Harry:

And on that you can definitely create the conditions for hard,

Harry:

harsh adversity b- and beasting.

Harry:

Let's say small B beasting if that's that, and that if you wanna use that

Harry:

term, I've got no problems doing that.

Harry:

You can still do that respectfully, with purpose, intentionally and deliberately,

Harry:

and I hope we never see the end of that.

Harry:

You don't want the kind of the, the bullying part of it, so some

Harry:

dickhead- … gets up there and it's his high horse or her high horse.

Harry:

But I hope we never see, and there has been examples of that around the globe

Harry:

that I'm aware of in the Five Eyes community at least, where they've swung

Harry:

the pendulum a little bit too far and you start to teach people a, a learned

Harry:

helplessness, and that's not how to build people ready for war fighting or

Harry:

emergency medicine on the side of the road or tactical police or any policing

Harry:

for mat- that matter, fire and rescue.

Harry:

I'm glad.

Harry:

I think I think we've talked about it before, of bringing hardness back into

Harry:

the world was one of the central tenets of Søren Kierkegaard and another lesser-known

Harry:

philoso- philosopher, Percy Cerutty.

Harry:

The world's getting soft, so I'm here to remind you to

Harry:

stay hard and do hard things.

Harry:

That's my bandwagon complete.

Harry:

What else are you seeing, mate?

Jonpaul:

So obviously we've got that one.

Jonpaul:

I think in the cognitive domain, that, that's quite interesting at the moment.

Jonpaul:

There's a lot of interest there because of the from the military perspective

Jonpaul:

of obviously we're seeing the change in character of warfare driven by

Jonpaul:

obviously the rapid advancements in AI and obviously drone-type technology.

Jonpaul:

So the big area there is about understanding cognitive load.

Jonpaul:

Can we quantify cognitive load?

Jonpaul:

The impact of cognitive load upon not only our decision-making ability, but

Jonpaul:

also how it impacts upon our physiological capability, which is real interesting.

Jonpaul:

So Professor Samuele Marcora at University of Bologna has done some

Jonpaul:

real interesting work, and there's some real interesting work in that

Jonpaul:

field around the NATO at the moment.

Jonpaul:

So that, that's of particular interest.

Jonpaul:

So then it's like, okay, if we can understand the impact of cognitive

Jonpaul:

load, can we adopt strategies to improve cognitive performance?

Jonpaul:

So a good example from University of Texas is SMART, so Strategic

Jonpaul:

Memory Advanced Reasoning Training.

Jonpaul:

So it's a, a framework looking at three key areas to try and

Jonpaul:

enhance cognitive capability.

Jonpaul:

So I think that, that's really an interesting development,

Jonpaul:

Wow … developmental area.

Jonpaul:

Nutrition, obviously just eating well, I think goes without saying.

Jonpaul:

And obviously appreciating the potential impact of a calorific deficit and how

Jonpaul:

that impacts upon us, but the, I think the evidence is pretty solid there.

Jonpaul:

Sleep, obviously understanding importance of sleep, being able to quantify and

Jonpaul:

have strategies to improve sleep.

Jonpaul:

Yeah, that's good.

Jonpaul:

And then it's more sort of evolving then- human machine teaming,

Jonpaul:

understanding how do we develop that?

Jonpaul:

How do we develop trust within it?

Jonpaul:

But for me, the biggest thing overall within the field of human

Jonpaul:

performance optimization, is how do we provide direction of travel?

Jonpaul:

How do we guide people?

Jonpaul:

And from a military perspective, that goes back to doctrine, the

Jonpaul:

developing a doctrinal framework to guide the delivery of interventions

Jonpaul:

to enhance human performance capabilities in one way, shape, or form.

Jonpaul:

And it's quite funny because one of the big things I piped on about in that paper,

Jonpaul:

the Fit to Fight paper actually, is the importance that the British Army needed

Jonpaul:

to develop a physical training doctrine, 'cause it didn't have it at that time.

Jonpaul:

My, my friends laugh at me because it's the one thing I always pipe on about,

Jonpaul:

and I think we need to have that.

Jonpaul:

Outro- Sort of not we, organizations need to have something that just

Jonpaul:

provides direction of travel, what works, what does not, and who's

Jonpaul:

got the responsibility for it.

Jonpaul:

Because we can have all this exploration, we can have all these exquisite

Jonpaul:

technologies, and idea, and evidence, that's great, but if we can't cohere

Jonpaul:

that, if we can't bring coherence to the delivery of these interventions

Jonpaul:

we're pissing against the wall.

Jonpaul:

And I think that, that's a big issue at the moment.

Jonpaul:

But I think our colleagues in the US, this is where they're ahead,

Jonpaul:

because if they, H- HPO as a concept or human performance as a concept,

Jonpaul:

arguably at, in more contemporary times, is developed within there.

Jonpaul:

And obviously we've seen that with the development of the Ranger

Jonpaul:

Athlete Warrior Program back in 2006.

Jonpaul:

That morphed into the performance THOR3, through tactical human

Jonpaul:

optimization, rapid reconditioning and readiness, I think it was.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

Then you had the Performance Triad, obviously the highlighting

Jonpaul:

the importance of sleep, nutrition, and physical activity.

Jonpaul:

Then you had POTFF, so preservation of the force and family, and

Jonpaul:

obviously now you've got H2F.

Jonpaul:

And one of the, the big strengths of the All-Essec Force Fitness doctrine

Jonpaul:

or concept, sorry, in my idea, in, in my opinion, sorry, is that they have a

Jonpaul:

doctrine to give direction of travel, and I think that's what's needed.

Jonpaul:

I think organizations, instead of just getting these great ideas,

Jonpaul:

they need to sit down- Yeah

Jonpaul:

and think what is it?

Jonpaul:

What do we need to make our people better?

Jonpaul:

What's important?"

Jonpaul:

It might be obviously within the military domain, we generally

Jonpaul:

we need to develop it all.

Jonpaul:

But if you're in a more of a a pointy end of the stick role, if

Jonpaul:

you're at the tip end, tip of the spear physicality is very important.

Jonpaul:

But what about if you're in a more of a cognitive role, like

Jonpaul:

an intelligence analyst, right?

Jonpaul:

Can we dial up the cognitive domain?

Jonpaul:

Likewise, if we're in medicine, it, what domain's more important?

Jonpaul:

Obviously, it's gonna be underpinned by nutrition and sleep and

Jonpaul:

physical activity, yes, but maybe decision-making might be more important.

Jonpaul:

And- Yeah … if we're gonna modulate delivery to enhance capability

Jonpaul:

within these areas, we need to have something gives us direction of travel.

Jonpaul:

And for me, that's why we need a doctrine.

Jonpaul:

Not a prescriptive dogma, far from it- Definitely not that.

Jonpaul:

That's dangerous.

Jonpaul:

But a framework which is, all right, this is what you need to do.

Jonpaul:

This is what works.

Jonpaul:

Avoid this 'cause that's BS, and 'cause that is another…

Jonpaul:

That's a major issue, I think, in the field.

Jonpaul:

So yeah, there's a few JPs rants in regards to HPO and some of

Jonpaul:

the things which are developing.

Harry:

No, no rants there, mate.

Harry:

I think there's a need for passion, particularly with your background.

Harry:

And you're dead right, I think it's the same here.

Harry:

I often say it's an emerging kind of field.

Harry:

If you were to take the origins in the US, military athlete kind of, the origins

Harry:

of the early 2000s or early this century, I can say it's emerging elsewhere and

Harry:

it's still, in a way, in the States doing the same, but you need to have

Harry:

this guidance, these guiding documents.

Harry:

At the end of the day, it's it's easy for someone like me in particular

Harry:

who might push back or challenge certain things to remember that

Harry:

ultimately we do need to Build war fighters, and soldiers and coppers,

Harry:

and ambulance officers and paramedics.

Harry:

But again, this approach that you're at the forefront of amongst others in

Harry:

the world is goes to another passion of mine, which is bringing them home safe.

Harry:

We send them off, as we say in the mission critical team, in, in the MCTI

Harry:

world we ask them to live an ordinary world of the post box pub and- … and

Harry:

the hairdresser, and send them off to the unordered extraordinary world

Harry:

often by themselves or together, by, by themselves, and then we bring them home.

Harry:

And I think that's this, as I said, downstream, I think treats, treats that

Harry:

that, that challenge, bringing them back through and navigating them home safely.

Harry:

Where where's all this headed, mate?

Harry:

If you were to kinda stretch your brain out 10, 20 years and I want you to think

Harry:

about your journey specifically around the masters, the HPO Masters program, and

Harry:

generally, more generally the, the, the s- the field or domain of human performance.

Harry:

Give us a, give us, a the JP's rant on- … what that looks like going forward.

Harry:

I would love to hear it.

Jonpaul:

I think what we're probably gonna see is a continued evolution.

Jonpaul:

We're not gonna see a revolution.

Jonpaul:

It's gonna be an evolution whereby organizations, may they be

Jonpaul:

military or first responders, are going to see the benefits of HPO.

Jonpaul:

And there, there's somewhat evidence which has been published now from

Jonpaul:

H2F, which has demonstrated the benefits, both objectively in terms

Jonpaul:

of enhancing health wellbeing, but also the financial benefits.

Jonpaul:

And ob- Yeah … unfortunately, in that day and age, that,

Jonpaul:

that has a lot of weight.

Jonpaul:

So when people start to see evidence that this thing works, then we're going to see

Jonpaul:

a coherence, and I think organizations are gonna develop HPO programs.

Jonpaul:

Initially, I think they'll be quite generic, and probably it has to be to

Jonpaul:

begin with, but then those programs will evolve and develop to deliver

Jonpaul:

more individualized interventions.

Jonpaul:

To a degree we've got to be pragmatic.

Jonpaul:

We're, it's not the case like performance sport, where we have all

Jonpaul:

the resources under the sun, and we can deliver the very best, right?

Jonpaul:

We need to be pragmatic and accept that we're going to, we can improve our

Jonpaul:

people, but we need to also think about how much can we reasonably improve them?

Jonpaul:

How can we make them be- how can we enhance their health wellbeing,

Jonpaul:

occupational performance, longevity, like in one shape or form?

Jonpaul:

So I think we're gonna see that evolution.

Jonpaul:

I think I hope that we start to see that technology can be used to augment

Jonpaul:

what we do, not to tell us what to do.

Jonpaul:

It's not gonna be some shiny fix.

Jonpaul:

We can't just rely on an AI algorithm to develop a training intervention.

Jonpaul:

We are humans.

Jonpaul:

We are people.

Jonpaul:

We change.

Jonpaul:

AI- Algorithmic thinking is rigid.

Jonpaul:

Rigid things break.

Jonpaul:

So hopefully people will start to realize, okay, these technologies have utility.

Jonpaul:

It can help us here or there, but we need to put the people at the center.

Jonpaul:

We need to work with our people.

Jonpaul:

We may need to be human.

Jonpaul:

We need human-human interaction.

Jonpaul:

That's what it needs to be.

Jonpaul:

Another thing, and this is maybe a bit contentious to a lot of people,

Jonpaul:

but it's something I strongly believe in, that people from a d- a given

Jonpaul:

organization, maybe military, first responders, they need to take the lead

Jonpaul:

in the development of HPO programs, and we've seen that in the military context.

Jonpaul:

If you bring someone from the civilian world, like the best S&C coach in

Jonpaul:

the world, and you embed them in a, a military context, say, to offer an

Jonpaul:

intervention to enhance performance, they might have the knowledge, but

Jonpaul:

they don't have the experience.

Jonpaul:

They've not been there.

Jonpaul:

They've not lived it.

Jonpaul:

And I think we need to create, hopefully, HPO teams or embedded HPO teams that are

Jonpaul:

led by those o- individuals from those organizations who have that contextual

Jonpaul:

understanding, who can say this will work in this context or this will not."

Jonpaul:

Because if you've…

Jonpaul:

you might be the best coach in the world.

Jonpaul:

You might have all the badges in the world.

Jonpaul:

If you've got a military unit, for example, and you say guys, we're going

Jonpaul:

to do this and that," and you don't get buy-in, oh, you know it, forget it.

Jonpaul:

It's not happening.

Jonpaul:

They're going to get whinged at.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

And that's wasted effort.

Jonpaul:

And I think given the demands of those who operate in an extremist context,

Jonpaul:

we need to recognize those demands, and the, the best people to do that

Jonpaul:

are those who've lived it, I think.

Jonpaul:

In, in my opinion, I believe that strongly because they can then come

Jonpaul:

forward and say this is what we need."

Jonpaul:

So they've got the, "They, this is what we need.

Jonpaul:

Help us develop this to deliver an intervention to make our people better."

Jonpaul:

Not some flipping crazy hair-brained idea or not some flipping sh-stupid

Jonpaul:

concept which has appealed on or appeared, sorry on Instagram.

Jonpaul:

Th- that, that's what it needs to be.

Jonpaul:

So I hope that's what happens, that we recalibrate

Harry:

Yeah, perfect, mate.

Harry:

That's something that I think you're generating here, and I think there

Harry:

should be an academic, a, a psychologist, strength and conditioning person

Harry:

expert, but led by the operators.

Harry:

Again, going back to when we tried to pinch from the US early days, it was very

Harry:

difficult to convince defense and the hierarchy that some baggy ass sergeant

Harry:

had a bunch of crazy ideas and about human performance, and they'd come and

Harry:

say, "We're the adults in the room."

Harry:

And that's what it felt like at times.

Harry:

But as about operators in, in my field, they're pretty smart as

Harry:

well, and they can get educated.

Harry:

And you picked up on another thing there.

Harry:

Y- or an extension of that, if you will, is training the operators.

Harry:

Y- a lot of this is about training the operators to train themselves

Harry:

and learn themselves about themselves with the supports around them.

Harry:

I think going, going back- right back to the Spartans talked about training a

Harry:

rational preparation so that they realize that as soon as they lose-- leave the,

Harry:

the agoges, that some of these skills and abilities, and they did have what

Harry:

appears anyway with the fragments left to have a more holistic, even a more

Harry:

holistic approach to development of their soldiers, their warriors, their

Harry:

citizens themselves, if you will, but they needed to tend to themselves as well.

Harry:

So this rational preparation is what Percy Cerutty called training intelligence.

Harry:

He didn't want his athletes to just run harder and faster and more laps.

Harry:

He wanted them to actually take agency over their own training and learning so

Harry:

that when he wasn't around, 'cause he had them for a few months of the year or a

Harry:

few weeks at a time or traveled with them, that they were able to train themselves

Harry:

at the same to the same standard that that he did when he was around coaching them.

Harry:

So I love that idea of training intelligence.

Harry:

I thought that one thing I'm seeing emerging in the world, or there's a,

Harry:

a far more emphasis on it, is about character, and that's behind my kind

Harry:

of my, m- my passion at the moment.

Harry:

It the book and how we kinda come to to communicate with each other and catch up.

Harry:

Do you have any anything that, any view or is there any, anywhere in the world

Harry:

people can look to any academic studies or individuals that are deep in the weeds on

Harry:

developing character or or maintaining it?

Harry:

Or, because that's still up for grabs.

Jonpaul:

For me Mike Matthews, Emeritus Professor Mike Matthews.

Jonpaul:

So M- so Mike is wr- written some seminal books on character,

Jonpaul:

the importance of character.

Jonpaul:

And that's his big area of work.

Jonpaul:

'Cause obviously working at West Point, he was at West Point I think for somebody

Jonpaul:

25 years- Yeah … o- over a period when the American military were heavily

Jonpaul:

engaged in combat operations worldwide.

Jonpaul:

And Mike's thing was looking at what ca- the, the character is a

Jonpaul:

big thing for West Point cadets, and he was looking at these 20…

Jonpaul:

He had these…

Jonpaul:

I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but he has these there's

Jonpaul:

22 charac- tr- character traits.

Jonpaul:

Is it trait?

Jonpaul:

Yeah, character traits, or not states, traits, character traits.

Jonpaul:

And obviously the, the objectively measured…

Jonpaul:

No, subjectively quantified the- the strength of these traits in individuals

Jonpaul:

in successful cadets at West Point,

Jonpaul:

In

Harry:

AP Yeah, I think that's I think that's Seligman's model potentially,

Harry:

or he- maybe they've worked together.

Harry:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

They work ve- very closely.

Jonpaul:

And I think Mike was also the PhD supervisor for Angela Duckworth,

Jonpaul:

who's done all the work around it.

Harry:

Yeah.

Jonpaul:

Okay … yeah.

Jonpaul:

But when it comes to character a- as we say Mike is Yoda.

Jonpaul:

His- Yep … anything he has written.

Jonpaul:

And it's brilliant because Mike has a lot of lived experience as well.

Jonpaul:

He was a U- US Air Force officer and a police officer- Yep … as

Jonpaul:

well before he came into academia, so he re- he relates to the two.

Jonpaul:

But in regards to character yeah, it's Mike's work is seminal in my opinion.

Harry:

Brilliant.

Harry:

And that, that's good because it is on the lips of many of the mission critical

Harry:

teams now, not only assessing for it, but how do we develop and maintain it?

Harry:

Again, sending them off to the unordered, extraordinary world,

Harry:

very traumatic, human depravity, the realities of killing and death.

Harry:

In all of the mission critical teams, our character is challenged

Harry:

just like our physical and si- our mental d- domains o- of performance.

Harry:

Mate I guess one thing we ask all of our guests on the Teamcast to do

Harry:

out of your expertise, your area of expertise and what could- what…

Harry:

If there was a couple of few things or a couple of nuggets you could

Harry:

leave

Harry:

Fear.

Harry:

What are the things that you do that really move the needle, and what can

Harry:

they do on Monday to to improve, enhance, maintain, recover from performance?

Jonpaul:

The first…

Jonpaul:

Oh, I've got three.

Jonpaul:

So the first one is to be curious, and not just intellectually curious,

Jonpaul:

just curious in general about life, about people, about things.

Jonpaul:

Things that might be totally different and off their radar, because that opens up

Jonpaul:

our mind and it expands us, and it's like that diversity of thought is so important.

Jonpaul:

Because today it's being lost I feel, 'cause of social media- Correct … and

Jonpaul:

these vicious echo chambers which we see on on some of these platforms.

Jonpaul:

And when we go out and you speak to people from all around the world, and you

Jonpaul:

learn their, and you hear their stories.

Jonpaul:

And again, obviously, storytelling's a big thing, is you- at the MCTI,

Jonpaul:

you guys have punched it big time, is you find out we, how similar we are,

Jonpaul:

but then you look at the differences.

Jonpaul:

And we don't want to all be homogenous and all be the same.

Jonpaul:

Obviously, we're chatting about Scotland Airlines, and obviously

Jonpaul:

the homogeneity of Scotland.

Jonpaul:

But the diversity, and I think it's just so important to

Jonpaul:

be curious about everything.

Jonpaul:

Obviously, intellectual curiosity and reading.

Jonpaul:

That ties into my second point, to read.

Jonpaul:

Read every day.

Jonpaul:

May that be papers or books.

Jonpaul:

A c- a, a real good one is your own book, Harry.

Jonpaul:

So yep, The Fourth Power.

Jonpaul:

Ah.

Jonpaul:

Witho- without a shadow of a doubt, mate, I'm gonna give you a shout for that.

Jonpaul:

But books which we can relate to, a- again expands our mind.

Jonpaul:

Not AI, not punching it into Cha- ChatGPT, because we need to get the gist.

Jonpaul:

We need to read- Yeah

Jonpaul:

to synthesize, to learn.

Jonpaul:

And then when it comes to delivering interventions or making ourselves better-

Jonpaul:

Focus on the fundamentals, the basics.

Jonpaul:

Do the basics and do the basics well.

Jonpaul:

If it's, s- if someone pipes up with some great new idea

Jonpaul:

it's not gonna be nothing new.

Jonpaul:

What, n- th- there's no crazy idea, there's no crazy technology

Jonpaul:

which is going to owe us a huge improvement in performance.

Jonpaul:

N- nothing out there which is legal anyway.

Jonpaul:

But if we're training, may that be physically, may that be enhancing

Jonpaul:

our psychological capabilities, our cognitive capabilities, enhancing

Jonpaul:

our sleep, enhancing our nutrition, enhancing our performance as human

Jonpaul:

beings, we need to do the basics, and we need to do them bloody consistently.

Jonpaul:

Because if we do that, if we're curious, if we read and focus on

Jonpaul:

the fundamentals, I will put my house on it, you will improve.

Jonpaul:

And none of us will ever get to the limit of our biological potential.

Jonpaul:

We can always be better every day in one way, shape, or form.

Jonpaul:

And, but the improvements will always be small.

Jonpaul:

They're not gonna, you're not gonna have a huge jump.

Jonpaul:

You're not gonna improve your marathon time from five hours to

Jonpaul:

three hours if it'd been in 12 weeks.

Jonpaul:

Hey, that, that's BS.

Jonpaul:

It's never gonna happen.

Jonpaul:

But you can go be better.

Jonpaul:

And if we go with that mindset, that growth mindset to just to be better every

Jonpaul:

day in one way, shape, or form, being curious, reading, and focusing on the

Jonpaul:

fundamentals we're on the right track.

Jonpaul:

That's gonna take us to where we need to be.

Jonpaul:

And then obviously when our time on this earth is done, yep, we can sit

Jonpaul:

back and think, "All right, job's done.

Jonpaul:

Done well.

Jonpaul:

Done everything I could.

Jonpaul:

Happy days.

Jonpaul:

See you later."

Harry:

Brilliant, mate.

Harry:

That is absolutely brilliant, and I hope everyone's taking notes.

Harry:

Mate, what do you do…

Harry:

y- this is a, been amazing career, a, a life so far.

Harry:

It's chock-full of effort and busyness, and you've got a

Harry:

family that you manage as well.

Harry:

How do you take time to look after yourself?

Harry:

What do you do to steal moments, minutes, whatever, h- with time?

Harry:

What do you do to keep yourself level and grounded?

Jonpaul:

Phys.

Jonpaul:

W- a, a lot of walking.

Jonpaul:

A lot, I love being outdoors.

Jonpaul:

Obviously, as part of the Scottish diaspora I need to go home.

Jonpaul:

All Jo- all Scottish people need to go back home because I

Jonpaul:

think that, that recharges us.

Jonpaul:

It recharges our spirit, it recharges our soul.

Jonpaul:

Th- there's something in there.

Jonpaul:

And I think, yeah, that.

Jonpaul:

Spending time in the water.

Jonpaul:

May that be paddleboarding or surfing.

Jonpaul:

Again, that, that has brilliant effect.

Jonpaul:

And I suppose the big one is just being mindful.

Jonpaul:

Mindful of, obviously, you can be really busy, and you've got all

Jonpaul:

these things going on, then this project, then that project, and this

Jonpaul:

book, and that paper, and that…

Jonpaul:

stop.

Jonpaul:

If everything- Just cease fire.

Jonpaul:

Let that all go.

Jonpaul:

Shut it down- … turn the phone off, and just chill out.

Jonpaul:

That, that's easier said than done.

Jonpaul:

And I certainly, it's, that, that's what I need to put time and effort into.

Jonpaul:

But I think it's that.

Jonpaul:

It's just being in nature and being back home.

Jonpaul:

And yeah, just practicing what I preach I think is the best way I can describe it.

Harry:

Wonderful.

Harry:

Jonpaul, Dr.

Harry:

Jonpaul, thank you very much for joining us on the Teamcast, mate.

Harry:

And there's a bunch of lessons in there for all of us, I think, in

Harry:

the mission critical team world.

Harry:

Look after yourself and take time, and fight for time

Harry:

sometimes, as you've alluded to.

Harry:

But thanks so much, mate.

Harry:

And again, congratulations on everything you've done and are doing.

Jonpaul:

Cheers, bud.

Jonpaul:

It's been an honor.

Jonpaul:

Thank you.

Preston:

Thank you again for listening to our Teamcast.

Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

And if you're a mission critical team looking to learn more about

Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

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Preston:

Until next time, thanks.

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Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania