Episode 10

full
Published on:

4th May 2026

S6 Ep9 Denis Leary on Residue, Six Years On

Six years ago this week, on May 7, 2020, we released our first Teamcast on Residue. In that episode, Preston shared a conversation with Coleman Ruiz on the psychological and emotional substance left behind after choosing the hard path. The episode, and the paper that grew out of it, traveled further than we expected. Eight operators have since told us that paper is the reason they are still here.

In 2018, at a Wounded Warriors event in Alexandria, Tom Hardy introduced the idea of Residue to Preston. Preston then turned to FDNY Chief David Morkal, who pointed him toward Denis Leary. Denis's response became an essential part of MCTI's paper.

Six years later, this is the first time Preston and Denis have actually talked in person. They get into what method actors and mission critical operators share, the difference between trauma and burden, dark humor as survival, the Clark Kent–at-the-barbecue problem, and why music does the work that nothing else quite does, as evidenced by Denis singing in the car on the way to the recording. Denis's response to our Monday morning question is in there, too.

If this conversation is useful, the best way to support our work is to subscribe and leave a quick rating or review. It helps us reach the people who need to hear it most.

Transcript
Preston:

Hi everybody.

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Welcome back to the team cast.

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This is Dr.

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Preston Cline, I'm joined today

by the legendary Denis Leary.

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Denis, thanks very much for being with us.

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Denis: You know, uh, Dr.

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Cline, I don't know if you know

this or not, but I'm also a doctor.

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Did you hear that?

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Oh,

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Preston: I did know

you're an honorary doctor.

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Denis: Yeah, I know

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Preston: I could.

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Well, thank you, doctor.

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Denis: I'm an honorary doctor at my

alma mater, Emerson College, which

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I actually did all four years of,

and I loved college and you know,

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it's a performing arts school.

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I actually did very well in terms

of my grades, just because it was

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all about acting and writing and,

but, um, I loved that school and

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they made me an honorary doctor.

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So I am a doctor of Arts and Letters.

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Preston: Well, Dr.

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Leary, thank you for joining us, sir.

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Denis: You're welcome.

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Dr.

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Cline.

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Preston: And I also understand

that you founded a club

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there that's still going on.

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Denis: Yeah, the comedy workshop, I

co-founded it with a number of people,

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Jody Hafner,, Eddie Brill, Chris

Phillips, Adam Roth, um, Katie Bulger,

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Dana Nathan, lauren Dombrowski, mario

Cantone, many of whom went on, you

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know, mario's was on Sex in the City,

was probably his most famous role.

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Yeah.

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Lauren was one of the creators

of Mad TV on Fox, which was a

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sketch show that ran forever.

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It was a very talented group of people.

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But yeah, it's the 50th anniversary

this year of that theater group.

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Preston: It's amazing.

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Well, good for you.

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So folks, those of you who are

listening, you might be thinking,

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since we normally have astronauts

and Navy SEALs and FBI agents on,

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why do we have the actor Denis Leary?

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Well, there's a couple of reasons.

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One, Denis is also the founder

and head of the Leary Firefighter

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Foundation, and that's how I met him.

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And it has to do with the fact that,

as many of you know, in:

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due to a random sequence of events,

I found myself at a Wounded Warriors

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event down in Alexandria, Virginia.

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This particular event was for folks

who live on the secret side of the

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house and when they get injured,

they're often isolated, 'cause they

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can't talk about the injury, they

can't talk about anything else.

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And so it just so happened

the actor Tom Hardy was there.

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He supports veterans like Denis does.

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And he was there to do a movie premiere

of Venom for them to raise some money.

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It turns out that when he was

performing in Black Hawk Down,

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which was his first movie, he had

a military advisor named RJ Casey.

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And Tom Said to RJ, is there

anything I could be reading about?

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And I was writing articles for the

Joint Special Operations Command.

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RJ happened to have one

and handed it to Tom.

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And that's how Tom came

to know my research.

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So when we met the first time,

I had never met an actor before.

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I thought I was just meeting a random guy

and he starts asking me these questions

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about liminality and like doctoral level.

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But he Was the one who said, why

didn't you talk about residue?

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And that's when I first came up with

this understanding that a method actor

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has to become, and Denis, I'm gonna be

asking you about this in a moment 'cause

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I really don't understand it, but, but

they really have to embody the person that

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they're playing in order to be authentic.

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But that means that they have

to have genuine emotions and

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experiences, good and bad.

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And he was saying that that

residue, if you don't process

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it, can be really harmful.

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And I really stuck with me because I

have some residue from my past life.

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And I reached out to some friends and

one of the people I reached out to

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was Chief David Morkel of the FDNY.

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And he's like, you should

really talk to Denis Leary.

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And, um, we reached out to you and you

were kind enough to reply back with

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some very deeply thoughtful ideas.

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But what it did is it validated

really what Tom was saying and

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allowed us to write the paper.

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And since We wrote that article,

eight different operators have

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approached us to tell us it was the

reason they didn't commit suicide

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because we were the first people.

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That's true.

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I didn't That's true statement.

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That's a true statement.

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And it, because we were the first people

to say, this isn't a life sentence.

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You're not broken, you're not a victim.

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You chose the hard path.

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You have to take responsibility for it.

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You gotta do the work.

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And here are some tools and techniques.

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And Denis, it was partly due to you

that we wrote that article, so you

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should take some of the credit for that.

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We're keeping some people

alive because of that work.

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Denis: Well, listen, I didn't know that.

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That's interesting.

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I think you or Dave told me the

story about Tom Hardy before, who

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I've never met, but I do think he's

given some amazing performances.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: He's a pretty good actor.

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So, , that carries some weight.

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You know what I mean?

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: I'm a fan of it.

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He's given some really amazing, you

ever see Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy?

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Preston: I have,

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Denis: yeah.

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I mean, listen, I'm not, I don't have

to blow smoke up Tom Hardy's ass.

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'cause

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: He doesn't need it.

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Preston: Right?

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Denis: He's a well-respected

actor, but that cast.

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Think about that cast.

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You have guys from my age group,

Gary Oldman, right into, you

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know, 10 years younger than that.

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And the youngest, basically the new

guy in that cast, a cast of Oscar

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winners and Oscar nominees and Right.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: British movie stars,

uh, great method actors.

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And then you have Tom Hardy,

who was the young guy.

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His character was the young guy as well.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: He has to come in in the

middle of that movie and compete.

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And I remember watching that

movie 'cause it's a great movie.

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And as a fellow actor, just

feeling like, oh my God, what a

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challenge that must have been like.

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Yeah.

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So you have to play the guy, you

have to come in and Gary Oldman.

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Preston: Yeah, that's right.

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Denis: You know, Benedict

Cumber, I mean, come on.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Denis: And he not only held

his own, he was riveting.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Anyways, I think, in general my

profession as an actor, not as a comedian.

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Yeah.

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But as an actor.

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There are too many people who study the

method or use the method and then, whether

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they realize it or not, they, they go

on television, they get interviewed, and

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they are very happy to let the reporters

and the audience know what a great

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method actor they are and how hard it is

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: For them to get

rid of their characters.

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And I don't necessarily,

I don't like that.

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I think that's, that's a bizarre

badge of honor to be wearing in

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public when you're doing press

for a movie or a television show.

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and then it all becomes about

you and about your method.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: I do use the method,

especially for, for heavy roles, Yeah.

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Dramatic roles.

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Um the greatest method actors of all

time, I'll just use one, robert De Niro,

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who I have worked with as an actor and

as, as a producer and developing product.

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He never gets in the other actors' ways.

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Preston: Right.

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Denis: He, the reason you know about

him putting on 60 pounds in Raging

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Bull is because you saw it on screen,

he didn't go out and publicize

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Preston: Yeah, yeah.

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Denis: Still doesn't go

out and publicize it.

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Yeah.

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so I disagree with that.

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Preston: Okay.

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Denis: But I think what's important

to note in this context is that,

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anybody can use whatever they

want, by the way, even when they're

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work, we're all working together.

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I don't care what you do.

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Yeah.

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Whatever you need to do,

get to the role, right.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: But for me, I do need to touch

bases of grief and whatever it might

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be, rage, anger, in my own personal

life in order to, to play the character.

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Right?

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That's just what, how I was trained.

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So comedically, it's the same

thing in a funny way, but

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it's much more lighthearted.

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Okay?

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Because comedically, I still

need to be the character and

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I need to process the comedy

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: To make sure it's working.

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But I still might access my rage.

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I still might access, tears or whatever,

but in a slightly different way.

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but the heavy days, like when

I was doing Rescue Me, that

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was very close to my heart.

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Not just because of my cousin who

died in the line of duty, who was a

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firefighter, but other firefighters I

knew, who had died in the line of duty on

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9/ 11, but also other firefighters that

were the technical advisors on the set

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Who had lived through 9/11 and

survived and had survivor's guilt.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Which is what my character had.

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So you have to be really careful.

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You want to use it and on a

set, a film set or a TV set,

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it's a 10 or a 12 hour day.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: So you might do one piece of

the scene, the heavy scene at nine

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o'clock in the morning, and then another

at four o'clock in the afternoon.

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So you have to keep it bubbling.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: And you wanna retain the

residue for that 24 hours, right?

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Preston: Yep.

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Denis: Or if it's three days in a row.

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So it's a very hard thing.

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You have to learn how to

go home and get rid of it.

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And that's much easier for us

to do as actors than it is to

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do, I think, for soldiers or for

firefighters or for, first responders.

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You know, that's why there's so

much dark humor in those jobs

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because they have to laugh at it.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Back at the base

or at the firehouse

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I don't know how it is for other people.

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Grief sits so close below

the surface anyways.

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Yeah.

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Especially the older you get, the more

grief you've been through, you know,

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it's, you just scratch the surface

and it's just, people don't understand

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that unless they've been through it.

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Like,

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Preston: yeah, that's right.

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Denis: Losing somebody's young or

losing somebody in a very tragic,

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circumstance or line of duty, death.

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You know, you don't ever

really get over that.

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Preston: So i'm One of those

people that thinks that we

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use the word trauma too much.

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I think there are hard days,

but not all of it's trauma.

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Some of it is just unprocessed, and

we're too quick to diagnose and to

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label it, it, just give it a minute.

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And one Of the things I recently

learned, I didn't know how, I didn't

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know this, but the word grief itself,

what it actually translates to is burden.

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And that's actually a really helpful

thing, like a framing to think about

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that because that, that invokes choice.

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You've received a burden.

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Now you have to decide what

you're gonna do with that burden.

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And so for an actor, and I'm gonna say

back to you, uh, what I heard you saying

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is you're gonna have to pick that up and

put that down and pick that up, put that

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down multiple times in a day or a week.

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Yeah.

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And so, and you have to do it without it

destroying you or wearing you just thin.

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You still have to be present

and honor that and honor those

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firefighters that are watching you.

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Denis: Yeah, it's hard.

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I'll give you an example.

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years ago I did a movie called Monument

Ave, which was a Irish crime movie.

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Really, really well done little film.

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Set in Boston in this neighborhood

that I used to live in.

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Uh, and it was myself, Billy

Crudup, Famke Janssen, Martin Sheen.

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It was a great cast.

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And, there Was some comedy in it,

but it was a heavy, heavy drama.

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Anyways, there's a scene at the end

where I have to deal with the death

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of my cousin who was also a gangster

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Who was killed by our boss.

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And at this point when I made this

movie, I was, geez, I must have been 40.

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And, my Father died very young and

very suddenly, when I was like 25.

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In order to do the scene, um, I

decided to use this song, which

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long story short, the weekend that

my father died, he died in Ireland.

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So we had to bring the body back here.

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And when we were going to the airport,

the song, Back on the Chain Gang by

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the pretenders was playing on the

radio a lot and it had that great

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line, "I found a picture of you".

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Well, in the course of the week of

doing the funeral and everything, we

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did go through with my mom some boxes

of pictures and that's, that's why that

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song stuck with me because, you know,

I saw a picture of you in a, in the

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song, it brings back all these memories

and that happened to me with my mother.

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Yeah.

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So I used it as for this one scene in

the movie, which took a whole night to

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shoot and it really worked well for me.

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I just went outside and listened

to the song and it immediately got

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me to where the place I had to be.

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Now I, I love that song, but I, I

cannot hear that song without going

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right back to my dad being dead.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Picking the body up at

Logan Airport and that moment of

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looking in the box with my mother

and my son is about to get married.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: He said he chose the song that

he wants him and his mother to dance to.

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Um for the mother son dance

is Back on the Chain Gang And

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I didn't wanna say anything.

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And after A couple of weeks, he was like,

why are you so hesitant about that song?

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I said, I should just tell you.

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So I told him, I said,

don't change the song.

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It's just, that's what

that song means to me.

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You can't get around it.

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It's still in there.

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I'm glad you said that thing about trauma,

because I don't see it as a burden.

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I know it is a burden.

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I know it's sometimes it

sneaks up on us, right?

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Preston: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Denis: Right.

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And it, and it scares the fuck out.

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So we go, ah, fuck.

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Yeah.

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I didn't know that was

gonna remind me of that.

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Preston: Yep.

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Denis: Right.

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But, um, the other side of it is

that, I know the emotions are in

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there and I treasure them because it

doesn't just remind me of them dying.

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It reminds That's right.

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Me of them.

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And how great it was to have

those people in your life.

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Preston: A hundred percent.

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And that's part of residue, right?

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It's the good and the bad.

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You have to own the whole thing.

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You don't,

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Denis: yeah.

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Preston: It's not just

the stuff that hurts you.

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And what's lovely about that story

you just told, and what I'm actually

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really excited about for you is that

you now get a new view of that song

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because it's gonna be part of something

that's truly beautiful in your family.

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Yeah.

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And so you, you get to see almost

like, you know, I have this, this, this

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thing is a tangent, but you'll get it.

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You know, Edith Poff.

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Edith Poff in World War II sings this

beautiful music, but as her music

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has gone through the generations,

different people have interpreted it.

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Yeah.

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It's still beautiful music.

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But each generation they

take it onto their own.

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They weren't fighting the Germans

and the occupied France, but the

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music is what lives through it.

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And that is a sort of a miraculous thing.

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Denis: I'll give you

another example, right.

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It's just, again, it's very individual.

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Preston: Sure.

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Denis: When my cousin Jerry Lucey died in

the Worcester Cold Storage Warehouse Fire.

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Now, it was before 9/11, you know?

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Um,

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Preston: just before.

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Denis: Yeah.

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Just before.

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And so in some ways it was a microscopic

version of 9/11 without us realizing,

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because the, it was a large warehouse

building downtown, and it collapsed.

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And so it took two weeks

to dig through the rubble.

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And firefighters came from all

over the country and the world

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to help dig it, you know, through

the rubble to find the bodies.

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Anyways, Jerry was one of the

last bodies they found so, you

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know, we were all down there.

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His wife and, my older brother who was

very close with Jerry, his sister, all

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the different family members, we all kind

of knew each other 'cause we all went

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to school together in that neighborhood.

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We all grew up there.

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Yes.

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So, you know, like 35 guys I

knew were firefighters in the

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Worcester Fire department.

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Anyways, the point being there were just,

there was bricks and rubble everywhere.

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One of my cousins from Ireland had

come over to, to wait for the bodies

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to be found and for the funerals.

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And when it was all said and done,

there was a big memorial service for

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all six guys and then individual masses.

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so it was a process.

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And then at the end they did

this sort of blessing of the

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site, like when it was all over.

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And my cousin Timo, he was now gonna

leave there and, and go to Logan

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Airport and fly back to Ireland.

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And he reached out and grabbed this

brick and I was like, what are you doing?

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And he is like, I'm

taking this as a memory.

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I was like, it was so weird because to

me, like the last fucking thing I wanted

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Anything to do with that building.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: But for him,

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Preston: especially going far away,

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Denis: he kept it.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: Yeah.

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And he still has it.

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Yeah.

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So, it's literally a touchstone for him.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: So I, I look at

it, I go, you know what?

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That's like, that's like,

um, you know, I have shirts.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Denis: I have W6 shirts,

I have 9/11 shirts.

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I have challenge coins.

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It's, they're different

touchstones for different

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Preston: That's right.

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They remind you of the good and the bad.

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Denis: Yes,

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Preston: exactly.

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You shouldn't.

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People often, I think that some

people make mistakes when they leave

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their field, their chosen field.

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They're like, I'm just gonna go to

Montana and put it all behind me.

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And I was like, but you're

giving up the good with the bad.

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Like there's so much good in what you did.

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There's so much good in the

relationships that you had.

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:

I know you're burnt out on

people and burnt out in the

389

:

world, but like, don't hide.

390

:

Isolation's not good for you.

391

:

You, you gotta stay in the game.

392

:

Denis: No, I totally, I agree with you

on that and literally on all fronts

393

:

because it will, you're not escaping it.

394

:

No, that's the thing.

395

:

You can't.

396

:

So, you know, they talk about that

thing of generational trauma now.

397

:

Preston: Yeah.

398

:

Denis: Which I agree, is probably true.

399

:

Uh, but yeah, you're not, you're, you're

burying it, which is just a bad thing.

400

:

Preston: Yeah.

401

:

Denis: You think you're going to

Montana and it's not gonna, you're

402

:

not gonna, uh, think about it

and you're gonna get rid of it.

403

:

You're, it's, it's, it's

inside, it's in your cells.

404

:

Preston: Yeah.

405

:

When I, when I first started working

with the FDNY, it was about:

406

:

so all the chiefs were 9/11 chiefs.

407

:

We would be there for some of their

big training events where they bring

408

:

in a lot of guys for different things.

409

:

Right?

410

:

And so they'd be at the Rock

and be doing this training.

411

:

And I'm just there as a research and

observer, but I know the guys, I've

412

:

known 'em for a little while 'cause

there's been a lot of time with 'em.

413

:

Well, a lot of people don't know if you've

never been in fire, is that if you're

414

:

wearing an air tank and you're rigged up

to go into a building, if you don't move,

415

:

if you don't move, an alarm will go off.

416

:

And what people don't understand

is that after the towers fell,

417

:

there were a lot of alarms going

off because people weren't moving.

418

:

Denis: Yeah.

419

:

Preston: So I'm telling you this story

because fast forward now it's:

420

:

All these old guys are

training these young guys.

421

:

And at the end of the program, at

the end of the event, at the end

422

:

of the simulation, they're calling

people in and uh, they're calling

423

:

on the radio just a roll call.

424

:

And there was this one intern that they

had sent off, but he wasn't checking in.

425

:

And at the same time that sound

was going, beep, beep, beep.

426

:

And you watch the old guys

absolutely just lose their minds.

427

:

Like it went from being a training

thing to people were physically

428

:

moving people like, where's that kid?

429

:

Get him in front of me now.

430

:

And they jacked that kid up.

431

:

And it wasn't so much just

because of training, but you

432

:

could just see it in their faces.

433

:

You could see on their bodies.

434

:

Like, you can't do that.

435

:

You can't have a radio silence.

436

:

We're doing roll call.

437

:

We lived through the silence of it.

438

:

We lived through like engine so and

so, silence engine, so and so silence.

439

:

And all we heard was these beeps

and like, you can't do that.

440

:

And I was like, emotionally at the time.

441

:

I needed the minute.

442

:

'cause I realized looking at it, I'm.

443

:

That's a lot.

444

:

That's a lot to ask people to do.

445

:

Denis: Yeah.

446

:

That day uh,

447

:

the first time you saw footage on the day.

448

:

Preston: Yeah.

449

:

Denis: Later that day, in the evening when

you saw the news and you saw the footage

450

:

that was shot down there, it was just,

it's just alarms going off everywhere.

451

:

Preston: Yeah.

452

:

Just brutal.

453

:

Denis: Yeah.

454

:

Just brutal.

455

:

You reminded me of something though

when I was talking about that the

456

:

other blessing as an actor, because

some of my friends, one in particular

457

:

who passed on from 9/11 Cancer, he

was great firefighter and the end of

458

:

his career, he was working as a drill

instructor down at, at the Rock Yeah.

459

:

The Training Academy.

460

:

Preston: Yeah.

461

:

Yeah.

462

:

Denis: FDNY Training Academy

and imparting his knowledge.

463

:

He felt like it was a great

way to access his feelings.

464

:

In a good way, in a constructive

way to say, you, this is why.

465

:

Listen to me.

466

:

This is what you gotta

do in this circumstance.

467

:

Um, so that he felt like

that was a good thing.

468

:

And that's why as an actor, it's such

a great gift to actually be able to

469

:

access your feelings and use them for

something because it's sort of cleaning

470

:

out your system a little bit, for

rage or whatever emotion it might be.

471

:

Preston: I've never thought about this

before, but I know for example, you

472

:

starting the, the Leary Firefighting

Foundation is actually an act of service.

473

:

It's an act of service for your cousin and

for your best friend and for firefighters.

474

:

Do you ever see, I've never asked

anybody this, but is acting in a

475

:

way a, a thing of service, like,

of accessing those emotions?

476

:

Is that in service to something

not just your own sort of purging,

477

:

but is in service to the audience?

478

:

Or is it really just

about like, creativity?

479

:

Denis: You know, you're storytellers.

480

:

Right?

481

:

Preston: Right.

482

:

Denis: So when we did Rescue Me, our

desire was to tell the story that we

483

:

knew from this particular firehouse

where I had a bunch of friends.

484

:

Where our tech advisor worked at the time.

485

:

We wanted to tell their stories

because that, it was a riveting story.

486

:

It was funny, it was touching,

it was upsetting, it was dark.

487

:

They were great fucking firefighters.

488

:

They were in a busy fire.

489

:

We just wanted to, you just wanted

to tell that story for whatever

490

:

it was, five or six or seven years

we were servicing their story.

491

:

And the audience 'cause you want

the audience to go, hopefully we

492

:

achieved it, this is what it's

really like to be in a firehouse.

493

:

Preston: Yeah.

494

:

Denis: Right.

495

:

Um, and that was the, it was

the joy and the challenge.

496

:

Preston: Yeah.

497

:

Denis: So we wanted to make, we literally

knew from the moment that we started,

498

:

we wanna make you cry one minute and

the next second you're dying laughing.

499

:

And the next second

you're scared shitless.

500

:

Preston: Yeah.

501

:

Denis: Because that's what it's like

to be a firefighter in the Yeah.

502

:

It always felt good.

503

:

, It's so interesting, man.

504

:

It was like so emotional and so

funny and we were working with

505

:

the firefighters every day.

506

:

Yeah.

507

:

It was, it was great.

508

:

, Guys were on shifts and they'd come

right from their shifts and they tell

509

:

us a story like, funny or dramatic.

510

:

Like, this is what happened

last night at my, and we would

511

:

go, we're using that next week.

512

:

Yeah.

513

:

We're gonna write that into.,

514

:

So, yeah, like I said your job is to

entertain the audience, but if it's based

515

:

on a true story or the writer's story

Director's story, you want to tell it.

516

:

And if it's based on a real person,

'cause I've done that as well.

517

:

That's, that's an even bigger challenge.

518

:

Preston: One of the things you said

earlier, and you know, in spending time

519

:

with the British SAS and the FBI and

NASA and firefighters and docs, they all

520

:

have one thing in common, which is if

you're living at the edge of things where

521

:

you gotta experience the best of things

and the worst of things, every single

522

:

one of 'em is looking for the laugh.

523

:

Every one of 'em.

524

:

Denis: Yes,

525

:

Preston: they are.

526

:

It's constantly, five minutes in the

banter begins and it's immediate and

527

:

it's just that it's an onslaught.

528

:

And the FDNY more often than

not, I'm laughing hysterically.

529

:

Even the guys that

don't like me are funny.

530

:

Like they're funny about the whole thing.

531

:

It's just this constant pursuit.

532

:

Yes.

533

:

I'm getting the people

around you to laugh.

534

:

Denis: Yeah, yeah.

535

:

Preston: It's like endless.

536

:

It's relentless.

537

:

Denis: It's crazy.

538

:

It really is.

539

:

We did it a few, quite a few times

on Rescue Me, 'cause it was based

540

:

on our experience as writers,

myself and Peter Tolan, seeing

541

:

it or if the guy's telling us.

542

:

I mean, there's a couple of scenes

in Rescue Me where we leave the

543

:

firehouse, we get on the truck.

544

:

An argument starts in the firehouse,

it continues in the truck.

545

:

They drive a couple of blocks.

546

:

They get out, they're still arguing.

547

:

They go into the fire and

they're, they're arguing.

548

:

They put out the fire, rescue,

whatever, and they come out and they're

549

:

still, that's based on these guys.

550

:

Like, they're so, uh,

551

:

Preston: it's true.

552

:

Denis: It's so amazing.

553

:

Yeah.

554

:

And also the job that they're

doing is just complete insanity.

555

:

Like, literally, like the thing

is just blowing, you know?

556

:

Yeah.

557

:

Like the entire building.

558

:

It's just blowing.

559

:

And they're, they're arguing

about some stupid thing on their

560

:

way in and pulling people out.

561

:

Yeah.

562

:

And then when they get done

with the people, everybody's

563

:

safe and the fire's out.

564

:

They're still arguing about it.

565

:

Preston: Oh, yeah.

566

:

I love.

567

:

Denis: I love it.

568

:

Preston: I was working at the Rock one

day, and whenever I'm down there, I'm down

569

:

there to look at the instructor cadre.

570

:

So sometimes we're recommending

changes and they hate that.

571

:

They hate me messing.

572

:

They're like, you're not a firefighter.

573

:

Stop doing that.

574

:

Anyway, so they're mad at me.

575

:

So, but we all go out to the pub,

of course, and we're out the pub and

576

:

it's my turn to get the shout right.

577

:

Get up and get around for everybody.

578

:

So I'm up at the bar and there's

this one drunk New Yorker, whatever.

579

:

Right?

580

:

I'm not, I'm not a small person.

581

:

So he is talking smack to me or

whatever, and I'm talking smack and

582

:

he's starting to get loud, whatever.

583

:

I don't really care.

584

:

All of a sudden I feel a bump

at my back and I turn around

585

:

thinking there's something else.

586

:

And it's all those firefighters

that don't like me, and they're

587

:

all like, is there a problem?

588

:

And I was like, you don't even like me.

589

:

They're like, not the point.

590

:

You're with us.

591

:

Denis: Yeah.

592

:

Yeah.

593

:

Preston: And it's just like,

that sums up so much about them.

594

:

Denis: It's so funny, man.

595

:

It really is.

596

:

Like you, I've had the experience of

dealing with New York City detectives.

597

:

Preston: Yes.

598

:

Denis: Um, uh, 'cause I, you know,

I played a couple of different

599

:

detectives and, and spent a night or

a day or a few nights and days with.

600

:

Preston: Yeah,

601

:

Denis: they do it.

602

:

We did, a TV show called The Job, Peter

Tolin and I, the guy who did rescue me.

603

:

And one of the stories we told is true.

604

:

The guy who was my tech advisor, on Thomas

Crown Affair, I had two tech advisors

605

:

and they were both homicide detectives.

606

:

This one guy told me his story.

607

:

He goes, yeah.

608

:

He goes, I remember this one time, we

went into this building, because we got

609

:

a call that this guy murdered his wife.

610

:

As we arrived, the guys that were

already there were saying like,

611

:

listen, there's, he's a golfer.

612

:

She looks like somebody

hit her with a golf club.

613

:

The guy's in the apartment.

614

:

And so He goes in and he

goes, I'm with my partner.

615

:

And you know, we walk in and sure enough

he goes, it's not that we're Colombo,

616

:

it's just we know what we're doing.

617

:

Yeah.

618

:

He goes within like five seconds.

619

:

We can tell by his demeanor he did it.

620

:

We don't know if he did

it with the golf club.

621

:

He probably, but he did it.

622

:

It's just we're so experienced, right?

623

:

Preston: Yeah.

624

:

Denis: So now we're just, we're gonna

spend a while here in the apartment.

625

:

There's pictures still being

taken and everything else.

626

:

So I tell my partner, I said, you

look around, let me talk to him.

627

:

So I talk to him, he goes, I

talked to him for like 10 minutes.

628

:

My partner disappears

and it's a big apartment.

629

:

He comes back and I, and now

somebody else is talking to the, to

630

:

the suspect and he goes, anything.

631

:

And his partner goes, this

is a really nice apartment.

632

:

And he goes, yeah so?

633

:

He goes, well, I need an apartment.

634

:

And he goes, he goes, what do you, he

goes, well, he's going off to jail.

635

:

He goes, walk around with me, take a look.

636

:

Preston: Yeah, the

fixture's in the bathroom.

637

:

Denis: He, he's walking around, he's

going, this is a pretty nice apartment.

638

:

So, so we put it into the tv.

639

:

So he goes, listen, that's just

like, you know, we have our suspect.

640

:

We know we're gonna nail him.

641

:

Like he took a walk around

and, he saw the body.

642

:

They're still photographing it.

643

:

He's looking at, he's looking at

the evidence and stuff, but he

644

:

is also going like, this fucking

place is gonna be available.

645

:

Preston: Yeah.

646

:

That's the stuff.

647

:

Denis: I mean, you just, and by

the way, like he's, he's not wrong.

648

:

Right.

649

:

It's somebody's gotta get the apartment.

650

:

It might as well him.

651

:

Preston: Yeah, exactly.

652

:

Denis: Oh my God,

653

:

Preston: One of the questions that

I wanted to ask you, 'cause we talk

654

:

about the routine world, the everyday

world, and the critical world, the

655

:

world that firefighters and cops

and surgeons operate in right?

656

:

It's A different world

with different rules.

657

:

Time moves differently,

space moves differently.

658

:

And there's this famous quote in

the, in the movie Kill Bill, right?

659

:

Where he talks about the fact that

Superman, the comic book hero or

660

:

whatever, he's the only guy that

is pretending to be Clark Kent.

661

:

He's not pretending to be Superman.

662

:

He actually is Superman.

663

:

He's pretending to be Clark

Kent because he's an alien.

664

:

Yeah.

665

:

And, and I often will think about the

guys I work with who are trying to like,

666

:

hang out at the cocktail party or the

barbecue in the back, or at the PTA and

667

:

they're just trying to be Clark Kent.

668

:

They're not actually that normal human.

669

:

They're just trying to be like,

all right, I gotta play this role.

670

:

And, and often when they're done with

their career or they're done with a

671

:

shift, they come back to their spouse,

they come back to their family and like.

672

:

Okay, well you've had your excitement.

673

:

Now it's time to be normal again.

674

:

But they were never normal to begin with.

675

:

That's why they went and did the

676

:

Denis: job.

677

:

Yeah.

678

:

I mean, that's very true, right?

679

:

Most of the firefighters I know, they

don't want to hear that but they'll

680

:

talk about other guys that they worked

with that way they'll say like, oh

681

:

my God, you know, he's a lunatic.

682

:

Or they'll introduce him to you.

683

:

This, this guy's a total maniac.

684

:

Preston: Yeah.

685

:

Denis: He did this job and

this job and then, but they

686

:

don't see themselves that way.

687

:

Preston: Yeah.

688

:

Denis: So, it's gotta be hard.

689

:

One of the guys that worked on Rescue

Me is a great firefighter and, you

690

:

know, survived 9/11 and everything else.

691

:

His name is Terry Quinn and

he became an amazing painter.

692

:

He started taking a painting class.

693

:

I think it was a way for him

to empty his head, you know?

694

:

He had feel for it and he started doing

it before, long before he retired.

695

:

He didn't have a lot of time to do it.

696

:

Preston: Yeah.

697

:

Denis: But man, he just turned to

an brilliant, brilliant painter.

698

:

And I think it was really a way

for him to creatively use his

699

:

brain and get away from all of it.

700

:

But he did a couple amazing , paintings

of firefighters as well, that was an

701

:

interesting thing to me to watch him.

702

:

Preston: Yeah.

703

:

We often talk about

the third thing, right?

704

:

And what we say is that if you only

got work and family, if you lose

705

:

one, you're likely to lose the other.

706

:

So you need a third thing.

707

:

And when I first met you, you talked

a lot about hockey being a really

708

:

important part, or sports being a

really important part to process

709

:

your emotions, your experience,

your physicality and all that stuff.

710

:

Does that remain an important, I mean,

you just got back from playing tennis, so

711

:

Denis: Yeah.

712

:

I Still play, I'm still skating

and I play street ball hockey, what

713

:

they call it, street hockey as well.

714

:

So Sunday mornings I play both.

715

:

I play, street hockey first and then I

eat something, and then I play ice hockey.

716

:

I never played basketball growing up.

717

:

'cause I was always playing hockey.

718

:

But it's like basketball.

719

:

Tennis has the same thing.

720

:

Boxing has it, but I was

never any good at that.

721

:

You cannot do anything except

exist in the moment for the full

722

:

game, 'cause you'll get killed.

723

:

Preston: Yeah.

724

:

Denis: So you have to be fully

engaged and improvisational

725

:

and aware of your surroundings.

726

:

And so it's a complete rest, any tension

or grief or worry, whatever it is,

727

:

doesn't exist for those two hours or

whatever, however long it is because you

728

:

have to be focused on what's going on.

729

:

I still think that's so important.

730

:

Preston: A hundred percent.

731

:

And then here's these

transitions we talk about, right?

732

:

So you're Dr.

733

:

Denis Leary, obviously you're also

the actor Denis Leary, and then

734

:

you're just Denis Leary, right?

735

:

You're just, you're the guy

your friends and family knows.

736

:

Denis: Yeah.

737

:

Preston: As you've become more famous

or you've done more things and you

738

:

become more noticed, is there a

cleaner divide between those things?

739

:

Do you have to put on different

masks or is it just you?

740

:

Denis: No, I mean, I guess, I'm

at that point in, in my life and

741

:

my career, where I've been around.

742

:

It is funny because I

have bunch of friends.

743

:

We've all been famous for almost the

same amount of time, about 35 years now.

744

:

We've been so famous for so long that

some of the executives that are running

745

:

some of these streaming companies.

746

:

I knew them when they were, you know, when

they first came in as assistants or, yeah.

747

:

Working in the mail room or whatever.

748

:

But the other thing is I've been

doing it so long that I, I love

749

:

it more than ever and the game has

altered a little bit because of the

750

:

streaming world or whatever, but,

um, you still have to do the same

751

:

things, which is go out and publicize.

752

:

Preston: Yeah.

753

:

Denis: So I'm Still a comedian.

754

:

I still do two concerts a year.

755

:

One for the Cam Neely Foundation up at

Boston Garden, and one for the Michael J.

756

:

Fox Parkinson's Foundation in New York.

757

:

so I'm doing standup

at least twice a year.

758

:

Okay.

759

:

, I'm also as a comedian going on talk

shows and podcasts to publicize all my

760

:

different projects and like one year,

last year or the year before we shot the

761

:

stuff, but it all came out last year.

762

:

I did a limited series drama with

Ray Romano, who's an old friend

763

:

of mine who I did ice Age with.

764

:

Yeah.

765

:

But we've known each other since

before we were famous as comedians.

766

:

then I did a, a Christmas

comedy with Michelle Pfeiffer,

767

:

who I'd never worked with.

768

:

I knew her husband 'cause

we played hockey together.

769

:

So that was crazy.

770

:

And then right after that I

did a comedy that my company

771

:

developed that we shot in Ireland.

772

:

So I literally did every except for

a musical, like, I did everything

773

:

in the course of one year, so, so

774

:

Preston: it's a musical next.

775

:

Denis: I'd love to do a musical,

but I just don't have the commitment

776

:

for the six months on Broadway.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

I was just talking about this with

somebody because we were talking

779

:

about doing a play and uh, I was

like, I never have the window.

780

:

'cause you need to give

at least four months.

781

:

Preston: Yeah.

782

:

And I should have looked this up,

but, um, do you live near your family?

783

:

Are you living

784

:

Denis: alone?

785

:

Yes.

786

:

My kids, both my kids

are here in New York.

787

:

They live in Brooklyn.

788

:

Preston: Nice.

789

:

Denis: My daughter's a writer.

790

:

My son is a producer.

791

:

He actually runs one of

my production companies.

792

:

Nice.

793

:

I actually worked with him on the,

uh, show that we shot in Ireland.

794

:

That was something he developed.

795

:

So my son was my boss, um, on that.

796

:

How

797

:

Preston: was that?

798

:

Denis: That was, it was great.

799

:

It was really great.

800

:

You know, it was really interesting

'cause he would just come in and

801

:

go, you know, we'd do a take,

he'd come in with a director and

802

:

he'd go, that was great, Denis.

803

:

That sucked.

804

:

Um, hey, let's do this.

805

:

Or he'd come in and he'd go,

Hey Denis, that was great.

806

:

Hey, uh, so, um, it's really interesting.

807

:

I have a bunch of friends who are

doing that now 'cause our kids are

808

:

turning into directors and writers.

809

:

Preston: Yeah.

810

:

Denis: Um, so it's interesting 'cause.

811

:

You know, I always had used to

joke about like, eventually we're

812

:

gonna ask our kids for jobs.

813

:

Preston: Yeah.

814

:

Denis: You know,

815

:

Preston: so let's talk about

just storytelling for a second.

816

:

We brought it up before.

817

:

So for a long time at MCTI, we

had a professional storyteller.

818

:

We had a chief storyteller

on staff named Clare Murphy.

819

:

Now in Ireland.

820

:

She's now doing great things on stage.

821

:

And the reason we did that was because,

it's much like being an athlete that

822

:

you suddenly transition to be a coach.

823

:

So a lot of times we have operators

that suddenly have to become instructor

824

:

cadre and it's two different skill

sets, um, that you have to do.

825

:

But storytelling is one of those

things, people remember stories

826

:

more than they remember data.

827

:

So it's much more accessible.

828

:

Yeah.

829

:

And, it's A natural skill

set they already have.

830

:

But I also believe, storytelling is

a way to process, as you're building

831

:

the story and thinking about the

story, it's a way to make meaning

832

:

of really complicated things.

833

:

Yes.

834

:

In your own head, before you

explain it to anyone else.

835

:

Is that, is that a fair, version,

of what you think about it?

836

:

Denis: Yeah, I, I do think that's true.

837

:

Uh, I think the reason that we tell

stories, especially because, I come

838

:

from, I'm a hundred percent Irish.

839

:

My parents are both from

the same village in Ireland.

840

:

When I was growing up, my dad was an

amazing storyteller,, all my aunts,

841

:

my mother, everybody was funny.

842

:

All the women in, in America that had

come over, they were all really funny

843

:

and they were all great storytellers.

844

:

So after a wedding or after a wake,

or a funeral, whatever, you'd go

845

:

back to somebody's house, usually

our apartment or our house, and you'd

846

:

end up great songs would be song,

but great stories would be told Yeah.

847

:

About the person who passed away.

848

:

And that i's probably, I picked

up some of it from my parents.

849

:

I mean, listen, we were

talking about grief.

850

:

One of the great things about Rescue

Me was we were trying to process grief

851

:

of survivor's guilt on a massive scale.

852

:

Right.

853

:

But we also had to make you laugh

because that's what they did.

854

:

Preston: Yeah.

855

:

Denis: There's a New project that I'm

working on right now, I don't know

856

:

if we'll end up bringing it to screen

or not, but, I'm writing it with a

857

:

friend of mine and it's about grief.

858

:

And it's about mortality,

but it's fucking funny.

859

:

It's balls out.

860

:

I mean, it's touching obviously,

but it is, we meant balls out funny.

861

:

Yeah.

862

:

Like, we wanna deal with grief

in a balls out funny way.

863

:

And my writing partner is an ex soldier.

864

:

So, um, we're both coming at it with

a lot of people in our lives, having

865

:

died very young for various reasons.

866

:

Sure.

867

:

And we were both like, let's

write something it's gonna

868

:

make you feel obviously.

869

:

But while it's making you feel

it's gonna make you die laughing.

870

:

Yeah.

871

:

About mortality and about grief.

872

:

Um, because it, it is, I, I keep

going back to what you said,

873

:

which is trying to escape it.

874

:

There's no escaping it.

875

:

Preston: No.

876

:

Denis: I mean, I find, I don't know

how anybody else, I, I know a lot

877

:

of older people do this, you know,

my mother died last year at age 98.

878

:

Um,

879

:

Preston: good run.

880

:

Denis: She lived, she

lived an amazing life.

881

:

Yeah.

882

:

And she, she still was

living an amazing life.

883

:

Yeah, she was, she was really only sick up

in the last year of her life, basically.

884

:

She, she started to fade a little

bit, but she was still there.

885

:

Preston: Yeah.

886

:

Denis: She was still sarcastic.

887

:

The last time I talked to her, she was

still making, I was, I was on FaceTime

888

:

like a couple days before she died.

889

:

She was making fun of my hair.

890

:

'cause I had had a hat on and I,

she didn't want me to have a hat

891

:

on while I was talking to her.

892

:

So I took my hat off and she's

like, oh my God, put the hat back.

893

:

You know, like, so, but that

woman lived an amazing life.

894

:

Preston: Yeah.

895

:

Denis: With so much grief.

896

:

And, but she was, she

wasn't about the grief.

897

:

Preston: Yeah.

898

:

Denis: She lived with it.

899

:

She, she celebrated it on the

days that it was required,

900

:

but she had great grandchild.

901

:

All she was about the kids.

902

:

Where are the kids to, where's

the baby, the new baby.

903

:

We're all gonna go.

904

:

So I think the older that we

get, we realize that, and you're

905

:

not, you're not afraid of death.

906

:

I'm not afraid of death.

907

:

All of my, all of my favorite

people that have gone.

908

:

Preston: Yeah.

909

:

Denis: You know, if, if

there's an afterlife, great.

910

:

I'll get that to hang out with those guys

911

:

Preston: again.

912

:

Yeah.

913

:

Denis: But you also realize like, it's

just, like you said, it's a part of you.

914

:

, When I think of my cousin

Jerry, , his son, who looks just

915

:

like him, is a firefighter in the

Worcester Fire Department now.

916

:

And his kids, they all

look like my cousin Jerry.

917

:

Their dad is a double of his dad.

918

:

So it's each time he has a new

baby, we're like, oh my God,

919

:

look at the head of hair on it.

920

:

So we're reminded and he's a great

firefighter, just like his dad was.

921

:

So it's like, what a great thing.

922

:

Preston: Yeah.

923

:

Denis: You know,

924

:

Preston: so what's important, and

I want people listening to think

925

:

about this, is when we say you can't

escape it, we're not saying that's

926

:

a life sentence of pain at all.

927

:

It's still a choice.

928

:

It's still the fuel

that makes life richer.

929

:

Because with that sorrow or with that

loss is also, to your point, my friends

930

:

that I've lost, I also remember the times

they made me laugh until I was crying

931

:

over the stupidest, most irreverent, most

inappropriate times to be making those

932

:

jokes, which made them even funnier.

933

:

'cause people were telling us to shut

up and I, and I wouldn't trade that

934

:

even for the pain of losing them.

935

:

I wouldn't trade.

936

:

No.

937

:

That laughter,

938

:

Denis: not at all.

939

:

Not at all.

940

:

It's so funny 'cause for me.

941

:

Like when my dad, my dad, dropped dead in

Ireland, but I went to, I went to Logan

942

:

Airport with my girlfriend, who's my wife.

943

:

Preston: Yeah.

944

:

Denis: Because we lived

pretty close to Logan Airport.

945

:

So the, on a whim that night, 'cause it

was a summer night, we just went to the

946

:

airport to meet them, to, to see him off.

947

:

And he was so fucking

funny, man, at the airport.

948

:

Um, so last time I saw him, he was making,

he had made us laugh and he was laughing.

949

:

My cousin Jerry, last time I saw him

was a couple weeks before he died, I was

950

:

doing a charity concert up in Boston.

951

:

He came to us and we were

just laughing our balls off.

952

:

Yeah.

953

:

Me, him, and my, my older brother.

954

:

that's, that stuff is, that's residue.

955

:

Preston: Yeah, that's right.

956

:

Denis: You know, my mother.

957

:

When I think of my mom, I

have so many memories of her

958

:

'cause she was a great person.

959

:

Fucking inspiring.

960

:

But like, I'm still thinking

of that last phone call.

961

:

Like she just was fucking shitting on me.

962

:

Preston: Yeah.

963

:

Denis: And making me laugh because

she's, she was just making fun

964

:

of my hair and whatever else.

965

:

You know, we're all gonna lose people.

966

:

And it is hard when it sneaks

up on you and it does overcome

967

:

you and makes you cry.

968

:

Of course.

969

:

Preston: Of course.

970

:

Right.

971

:

Denis: I understand it and it's upsetting,

but you know what, there's no stopping it.

972

:

Preston: Yeah.

973

:

Denis: I actually, selfishly

as an actor, go, fuck man.

974

:

I hope it's gonna be there the

next time I wanna access it.

975

:

Preston: Yeah.

976

:

Denis: Because you're always worried

that you're not gonna get it, you

977

:

know, it's not gonna be there.

978

:

Um,

979

:

Preston: some of my audiences heard me

say this before, but one of the moments,

980

:

you know, that define you as a researcher

for me or as a academic or as a person,

981

:

I had a meeting trying to understand

if I was gonna study these teams.

982

:

And this is back in 2007.

983

:

And I happened to be sitting in

between a guy named Chris Warner,

984

:

who's a famous mountaineer.

985

:

He summited all the big summits

and next to me on the other side

986

:

was a guy named Vikram Bakar.

987

:

Vikram Bakar was a pediatric surgeon.

988

:

And so I was talking to Chris and

I said, Hey Chris, how did you know

989

:

when you went from being an amateur

mountaineer to a professional mountaineer?

990

:

It's not like there's degree or anything.

991

:

You, it just one day you are.

992

:

And he was like, oh, I can tell

you the exact moment he says.

993

:

When I'm an amateur mountaineer,

mountaineering is painful.

994

:

It is a physically painful thing.

995

:

Yeah.

996

:

And he says, what I used to do

is take all that pain and I would

997

:

compartmentalize and shove it down.

998

:

But when I would take a break,

it would all come screaming back.

999

:

And then one day I was like, no, no, no.

:

00:37:38,421 --> 00:37:39,531

This is part of it.

:

00:37:39,561 --> 00:37:41,871

This, this pain is part of the experience.

:

00:37:41,901 --> 00:37:43,431

I've gotta make friends with this beast.

:

00:37:43,431 --> 00:37:45,711

I've gotta like have a

relationship with this thing.

:

00:37:45,711 --> 00:37:48,021

I can't let it be a thing I'm afraid of.

:

00:37:48,051 --> 00:37:49,491

It's gotta be part of the experience.

:

00:37:49,851 --> 00:37:51,351

And that's when I became

professional mountaineer.

:

00:37:51,351 --> 00:37:55,311

And as soon as he was done talking,

Vikram Bakar goes, same for me.

:

00:37:55,521 --> 00:37:58,551

And we all turned and we're like,

yeah, was that the same for you?

:

00:37:58,911 --> 00:38:02,841

And he was like, if I do three heart

surgeries for children during a

:

00:38:02,841 --> 00:38:04,731

day and I lose the first patient.

:

00:38:05,361 --> 00:38:09,831

I used to just swallow that pain, try to

hold it off, but what it would do is it

:

00:38:09,831 --> 00:38:13,401

would distract me as much as I would try

to fight it, the pain would distract me.

:

00:38:13,761 --> 00:38:17,721

It's when I lost the patient that I

would mourn the patient right there.

:

00:38:17,871 --> 00:38:19,611

I would own the pain right there.

:

00:38:19,611 --> 00:38:23,211

I'd be like, I am sorry that I

couldn't do this thing for you,

:

00:38:23,211 --> 00:38:24,501

and thank you for teaching me this.

:

00:38:24,501 --> 00:38:27,201

Dan Dworkis is like, thank you

for the lesson you just taught me.

:

00:38:27,651 --> 00:38:31,431

And once I did that, once I owned

it, in that moment I was free.

:

00:38:31,971 --> 00:38:34,551

And then I changed my

relationship with sorrow.

:

00:38:34,551 --> 00:38:37,611

I changed my relationship pain

and that was the moment for me

:

00:38:37,611 --> 00:38:39,921

that I was like, oh, I get it.

:

00:38:39,921 --> 00:38:42,861

When you work at that level,

there are things that you have

:

00:38:42,861 --> 00:38:44,691

to learn in order to survive it.

:

00:38:44,751 --> 00:38:49,581

Like residue, like there are things in

order to sustain yourself and be go on

:

00:38:49,581 --> 00:38:51,681

to be a grandparent that can be your mom.

:

00:38:51,951 --> 00:38:54,201

You're gonna have to change

your relationship with pain and

:

00:38:54,201 --> 00:38:55,521

sorrow or it'll destroy you.

:

00:38:55,801 --> 00:38:56,181

Denis: Yep.

:

00:38:56,261 --> 00:38:57,005

It's So true.

:

00:38:57,085 --> 00:38:59,485

When a young person who

hasn't been through it before.

:

00:38:59,665 --> 00:38:59,935

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:39:00,865 --> 00:39:01,285

Denis: Right.

:

00:39:01,645 --> 00:39:06,408

When they either ask you for advice

or you're trying to help them, and you

:

00:39:06,408 --> 00:39:07,698

have, you realize you have to tell them

:

00:39:07,698 --> 00:39:08,748

like it never goes away.

:

00:39:08,958 --> 00:39:09,318

Preston: Right.

:

00:39:09,873 --> 00:39:11,343

Denis: It just, you just get used to it.

:

00:39:11,523 --> 00:39:11,793

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:39:12,033 --> 00:39:14,403

Denis: And uh, that's,

it's so surprising to them.

:

00:39:14,763 --> 00:39:14,913

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:39:14,913 --> 00:39:17,553

Denis: Because they don't, if they

haven't experienced death before,

:

00:39:17,603 --> 00:39:19,883

it's always interesting when a person

dies 'cause there's somebody new

:

00:39:19,883 --> 00:39:21,293

there that you have to explain it to.

:

00:39:21,533 --> 00:39:21,833

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:39:22,343 --> 00:39:25,673

So recently we had, we had some

folks that were lost in our family

:

00:39:25,703 --> 00:39:26,843

and there was some kids there.

:

00:39:26,843 --> 00:39:29,573

And of course, you know, I'm one of

the people that are gonna be there.

:

00:39:29,933 --> 00:39:33,803

And it was in the days afterwards,

I gathered the kids together and

:

00:39:33,803 --> 00:39:35,663

I grabbed them and I was like,

listen to me, listen to me.

:

00:39:36,263 --> 00:39:37,583

Grief has its own rules.

:

00:39:37,883 --> 00:39:38,243

Right.

:

00:39:38,243 --> 00:39:40,223

So don't judge yourself as being crazy.

:

00:39:40,403 --> 00:39:41,543

Grief has its own rules.

:

00:39:42,023 --> 00:39:45,233

It also comes in waves, and the

waves are big in the beginning.

:

00:39:45,323 --> 00:39:45,953

They're big.

:

00:39:46,253 --> 00:39:47,603

So that's why we need swim buddies.

:

00:39:47,663 --> 00:39:50,153

So we're all gonna be swim buddies for

each other because while one person's

:

00:39:50,153 --> 00:39:51,203

up, the other person's gonna be down.

:

00:39:51,203 --> 00:39:51,263

Yeah.

:

00:39:51,413 --> 00:39:52,163

And that'll shift.

:

00:39:52,373 --> 00:39:54,563

And then the waves will start to go down.

:

00:39:54,833 --> 00:39:55,793

They'll never go away.

:

00:39:55,793 --> 00:39:59,003

To your point, they're never gonna go

away, but they'll get to the point where

:

00:39:59,003 --> 00:40:02,483

you can ride them a little more and they

won't be so that they're drowning you.

:

00:40:02,873 --> 00:40:03,923

So it'll take time.

:

00:40:03,953 --> 00:40:05,633

But together, that's why we're a team.

:

00:40:05,783 --> 00:40:08,333

We're gonna figure this out, but

you're not gonna judge yourself.

:

00:40:08,363 --> 00:40:08,753

Right.

:

00:40:09,053 --> 00:40:11,123

Uh, I'll do that for you and you're fine.

:

00:40:11,633 --> 00:40:12,893

I'll let you know if you're not fine.

:

00:40:12,898 --> 00:40:12,988

Yeah.

:

00:40:12,988 --> 00:40:13,148

Denis: But

:

00:40:13,148 --> 00:40:13,788

Preston: right now you're fine.

:

00:40:14,303 --> 00:40:14,513

Denis: Yeah.

:

00:40:14,543 --> 00:40:17,363

It's, it's like, uh, and the

more experience you have.

:

00:40:17,363 --> 00:40:19,203

Especially with tragic

or sudden, that's right.

:

00:40:19,203 --> 00:40:19,273

Death.

:

00:40:19,278 --> 00:40:19,403

Right.

:

00:40:19,453 --> 00:40:20,443

You go, ah, fuck, dude.

:

00:40:20,493 --> 00:40:24,034

I know not exactly like on, on

a clock, but I know generally

:

00:40:24,154 --> 00:40:25,474

how this is gonna go for you.

:

00:40:25,654 --> 00:40:25,954

Preston: Yep.

:

00:40:26,044 --> 00:40:29,434

Denis: It gets the, you can almost

predict like the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

:

00:40:29,494 --> 00:40:29,914

Preston: That's right.

:

00:40:29,914 --> 00:40:30,574

Denis: Rules of the Dead.

:

00:40:30,574 --> 00:40:32,734

Like what's gonna happen,

what the stages are.

:

00:40:32,884 --> 00:40:33,154

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:40:33,334 --> 00:40:35,434

Denis: Stages ne the stage

never really changed.

:

00:40:35,434 --> 00:40:35,794

Preston: They don't,

:

00:40:36,364 --> 00:40:39,364

Denis: and then people don't talk

about the residual or the, like

:

00:40:39,364 --> 00:40:41,134

you said, the residue of grief.

:

00:40:41,164 --> 00:40:41,434

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:40:41,824 --> 00:40:43,894

Denis: Over 20, 30, 40 years.

:

00:40:43,984 --> 00:40:44,164

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:40:44,164 --> 00:40:44,254

And

:

00:40:44,254 --> 00:40:47,524

Denis: you see behaviors repeated 'cause

that's what grief is what death is.

:

00:40:47,524 --> 00:40:47,704

Hundred.

:

00:40:47,914 --> 00:40:51,594

And then I had to recently do this

with somebody who's going through

:

00:40:51,684 --> 00:40:55,014

a great sudden loss and say,

listen, this is, this is normal.

:

00:40:55,074 --> 00:40:56,514

You're gonna feel this way and this way.

:

00:40:56,559 --> 00:40:56,849

Yeah.

:

00:40:56,874 --> 00:40:58,194

And then you're gonna feel okay.

:

00:40:58,494 --> 00:40:58,704

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:40:58,984 --> 00:41:00,124

Denis: Just get through this part.

:

00:41:00,244 --> 00:41:00,634

Preston: That's right.

:

00:41:00,904 --> 00:41:02,194

Denis: And then you're

gonna get to this point.

:

00:41:02,194 --> 00:41:03,994

And then you see it and they go, oh yeah.

:

00:41:03,994 --> 00:41:04,294

Right.

:

00:41:04,294 --> 00:41:04,624

Okay.

:

00:41:05,104 --> 00:41:06,574

And now I see the opening.

:

00:41:06,574 --> 00:41:06,934

Right.

:

00:41:07,364 --> 00:41:10,874

It's like, uh, somebody asks you

like, uh, uh, how to hit a fast ball

:

00:41:10,874 --> 00:41:12,884

or how to shoot a, a three pointer.

:

00:41:12,884 --> 00:41:13,064

Right.

:

00:41:13,064 --> 00:41:13,124

Yeah.

:

00:41:13,124 --> 00:41:17,204

Like, there's, somebody can teach

you that so somebody can teach

:

00:41:17,204 --> 00:41:18,674

you like how to overcome things.

:

00:41:18,734 --> 00:41:19,034

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:41:19,154 --> 00:41:20,354

Denis: That you have to be open.

:

00:41:20,354 --> 00:41:20,564

I know.

:

00:41:20,564 --> 00:41:22,489

You should not go to a isolate.

:

00:41:22,494 --> 00:41:22,604

Isolate.

:

00:41:22,964 --> 00:41:23,234

That's right.

:

00:41:23,849 --> 00:41:24,389

Oh my God.

:

00:41:24,389 --> 00:41:25,049

It's the worst.

:

00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:25,799

Preston: It's the worst.

:

00:41:25,799 --> 00:41:29,969

You, you need some people around you to

distract you, to make you laugh, to feed

:

00:41:29,969 --> 00:41:31,679

you all the things that grandmothers know.

:

00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:32,009

Right?

:

00:41:32,249 --> 00:41:32,339

Yeah.

:

00:41:32,339 --> 00:41:36,029

But it, it's also, and I keep wanting to

say this to people that are listening,

:

00:41:36,539 --> 00:41:39,839

if humans are to suffer pain, we

are not merely human to suffer pain.

:

00:41:39,839 --> 00:41:44,579

This is a quote by Ferris a poet, and, and

this idea is, it's not a life sentence.

:

00:41:44,579 --> 00:41:46,409

Like it is overwhelming.

:

00:41:46,409 --> 00:41:47,669

It is devastating.

:

00:41:47,669 --> 00:41:50,189

It can be debilitating,

but it's not forever.

:

00:41:50,429 --> 00:41:51,479

You just need to get through it.

:

00:41:51,479 --> 00:41:53,219

And that's why you need some

other humans around you.

:

00:41:53,969 --> 00:41:54,359

Denis: Yeah.

:

00:41:54,359 --> 00:41:58,764

Family and or people that have

been through it because what

:

00:41:58,764 --> 00:42:00,564

they're saying is a real value.

:

00:42:00,834 --> 00:42:01,074

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:42:01,074 --> 00:42:01,284

Denis: Right.

:

00:42:01,464 --> 00:42:05,154

Of course, we would go to a,

a basketball player or a coach

:

00:42:05,214 --> 00:42:06,444

to teach us the three pointer.

:

00:42:06,564 --> 00:42:06,894

Preston: That's right.

:

00:42:07,234 --> 00:42:09,184

Denis: You take a lesson in golf, right?

:

00:42:09,184 --> 00:42:11,689

If you Wanna learn you take

a lesson with a pro, right?

:

00:42:11,749 --> 00:42:12,079

Well,

:

00:42:12,109 --> 00:42:12,229

Preston: yeah.

:

00:42:12,529 --> 00:42:15,229

Denis: There's people in my family

that are pro fucking grief people.

:

00:42:15,379 --> 00:42:17,629

That's, we've been that through

so much death where we can really

:

00:42:17,629 --> 00:42:18,739

fucking coach you through it.

:

00:42:18,799 --> 00:42:19,309

Preston: That's right.

:

00:42:19,609 --> 00:42:20,029

That's right.

:

00:42:20,029 --> 00:42:20,539

We've been down

:

00:42:20,539 --> 00:42:20,779

this road.

:

00:42:20,779 --> 00:42:23,909

Denis: The firefighters, soldiers,

these jobs, like, that's, that's

:

00:42:23,909 --> 00:42:25,319

part and parcel of what they do.

:

00:42:25,499 --> 00:42:25,949

Preston: That's right.

:

00:42:26,219 --> 00:42:28,829

One of the interesting things that

happened to me in my life, and we did

:

00:42:28,829 --> 00:42:32,229

a Teamcast about this, but , I spent

36 hours with Chief Pfeiffer going

:

00:42:32,229 --> 00:42:35,739

into fires like probably you have

for your acting, going into fires in

:

00:42:35,739 --> 00:42:39,429

New York City and I, and in between

those, you know, you'd be in Metro Tech

:

00:42:39,429 --> 00:42:40,989

hanging out, waiting for the next fire.

:

00:42:41,169 --> 00:42:44,199

And I happened to sit with the office

with Chief Maynes, and Chief Maynes was

:

00:42:44,199 --> 00:42:46,119

the head of the incident management team.

:

00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:48,799

That was the team that

got stood up after 9/11.

:

00:42:48,819 --> 00:42:50,619

And they were the ones,

first ones into Katrina.

:

00:42:51,189 --> 00:42:52,839

And we're sitting there,

it's three in the morning.

:

00:42:52,839 --> 00:42:53,739

We're all tired.

:

00:42:53,739 --> 00:42:55,244

I'm like trying to figure

out what I'm doing.

:

00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,509

And, uh, he goes, Hey Preston, did

you ever hear the story about how

:

00:42:58,509 --> 00:43:01,679

Wildland fire saved FDNY during 9/11?

:

00:43:01,739 --> 00:43:02,669

I was like, what are you talking about?

:

00:43:03,059 --> 00:43:07,099

And, it turns out, and there's a whole

team cast on this, but Governor Cuomo

:

00:43:07,099 --> 00:43:10,069

had brought in an incident management

team of wildland firefighters.

:

00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:10,369

Yeah.

:

00:43:10,369 --> 00:43:11,989

And there's great stories like Yeah.

:

00:43:12,049 --> 00:43:14,719

The firefighters were like, Hey, if

we see a tree, we'll let you know.

:

00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:15,439

Smokey the bear.

:

00:43:15,444 --> 00:43:15,684

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

:

00:43:15,769 --> 00:43:15,889

yeah.

:

00:43:15,889 --> 00:43:16,789

Get the fuck outta here.

:

00:43:17,059 --> 00:43:17,329

Denis: Yeah.

:

00:43:17,509 --> 00:43:18,989

Preston: But they actually

really were very, very helpful.

:

00:43:19,534 --> 00:43:20,734

But the reason I'm,

:

00:43:20,734 --> 00:43:21,634

Denis: he's very helpful.

:

00:43:21,694 --> 00:43:22,114

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:43:22,114 --> 00:43:25,594

And the reason I'm telling you this is

because when I said to Chief Maynes,

:

00:43:25,654 --> 00:43:27,784

how does not everyone know this story?

:

00:43:27,874 --> 00:43:29,134

This is an amazing story.

:

00:43:29,254 --> 00:43:31,264

And he goes, it's not my story to tell.

:

00:43:31,264 --> 00:43:32,164

It's not our story to tell.

:

00:43:32,164 --> 00:43:33,184

It's their story to tell.

:

00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:33,489

Yeah.

:

00:43:33,494 --> 00:43:37,144

And so a year later, right, i I, I kept

thinking about, kept thinking about it.

:

00:43:37,354 --> 00:43:40,205

I go out to work with Wild

Land Fire and meet the chief

:

00:43:40,355 --> 00:43:42,065

who was the guy on the ground.

:

00:43:42,065 --> 00:43:42,605

And I was like,

:

00:43:42,605 --> 00:43:42,915

Denis: that's awesome.

:

00:43:43,265 --> 00:43:45,035

Preston: I was like, why

aren't you telling this story?

:

00:43:45,035 --> 00:43:47,285

And he said, not my story to tell.

:

00:43:47,285 --> 00:43:48,815

And I was like, for the

love of fucking God.

:

00:43:48,935 --> 00:43:52,715

So I got 'em both on the phone and

I was like, the world needs to hear

:

00:43:52,715 --> 00:43:56,255

this, so I'm gonna be the guy that's

gonna tell the story and you're

:

00:43:56,255 --> 00:43:57,575

just gonna make sure I tell it true.

:

00:43:57,725 --> 00:44:00,635

And we got him on the same

team cast and we recorded and

:

00:44:00,635 --> 00:44:02,345

it was such an amazing thing.

:

00:44:03,170 --> 00:44:04,970

All these little things

that people don't know.

:

00:44:04,970 --> 00:44:09,060

Like when the chief, and I'm forgetting

his name, I deeply apologize, but when

:

00:44:09,060 --> 00:44:12,990

the wildland fire chief retired, it

was the FDNY flew out and retired him.

:

00:44:13,135 --> 00:44:14,220

Denis: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:16,890

Preston: And like stuff like that,

that people just, like, they don't

:

00:44:16,890 --> 00:44:20,950

understand some of this stuff, the

cultural stuff of it, how important it is.

:

00:44:21,410 --> 00:44:22,820

Denis: Yeah, man people don't understand.

:

00:44:22,970 --> 00:44:26,130

They don't understand until

they, they watch something maybe

:

00:44:26,130 --> 00:44:26,960

Rescue Me you or something.

:

00:44:27,380 --> 00:44:27,500

Yeah.

:

00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:27,980

Shows it.

:

00:44:27,980 --> 00:44:28,220

Right.

:

00:44:28,220 --> 00:44:29,600

But they don't understand.

:

00:44:29,870 --> 00:44:30,470

Oh shit.

:

00:44:30,470 --> 00:44:33,350

Like people fucking

come from other places.

:

00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:38,140

Firefighters come from other places

and the months afterwards, the people,

:

00:44:38,140 --> 00:44:38,920

Preston: everybody came.

:

00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:39,460

Denis: Yeah.

:

00:44:39,605 --> 00:44:40,210

Um, and I

:

00:44:40,210 --> 00:44:41,170

Preston: know, I know you're from New

:

00:44:41,170 --> 00:44:41,720

Denis: England like I am.

:

00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:41,905

Amazing.

:

00:44:41,980 --> 00:44:44,830

It was amazing how many, I mean,

it happened in Worcester too.

:

00:44:44,950 --> 00:44:45,160

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:44:45,370 --> 00:44:48,100

Denis: I'll never forget, I

was at a friend's funeral, a

:

00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:49,820

firefighter shortly after 9/11.

:

00:44:49,820 --> 00:44:51,945

And, it was a ton of firefighters

there from all over the

:

00:44:51,945 --> 00:44:52,935

place outside the church.

:

00:44:52,935 --> 00:44:56,642

And, um, there was a bunch

of little people firefighters

:

00:44:57,282 --> 00:44:58,362

with normal sized guys.

:

00:44:58,362 --> 00:44:59,372

They were from London.

:

00:45:00,192 --> 00:45:01,992

And I met them, they wanted to

take a picture of something.

:

00:45:01,992 --> 00:45:05,532

So I was taking a picture with 'em

and I said to the, uh, normal sized

:

00:45:05,532 --> 00:45:07,782

firefighter that was with 'em, I

said, what's, what's going on here?

:

00:45:07,782 --> 00:45:10,662

He goes, oh, these guys, they

work in the the fire department,

:

00:45:10,662 --> 00:45:12,582

but for bomb services.

:

00:45:12,912 --> 00:45:15,042

'Cause their size allows

'em to go into rubble.

:

00:45:15,132 --> 00:45:15,552

Preston: Wow.

:

00:45:16,332 --> 00:45:19,752

Denis: And I was like, I said, are they

working down at fucking ground zero?

:

00:45:19,752 --> 00:45:20,907

He is like, oh yeah,

that's why we're here.

:

00:45:21,792 --> 00:45:23,292

I was like, that fucking genius.

:

00:45:23,292 --> 00:45:23,622

Of course.

:

00:45:23,622 --> 00:45:23,832

Yes,

:

00:45:24,222 --> 00:45:24,282

Preston: of

:

00:45:24,282 --> 00:45:24,702

Denis: course.

:

00:45:24,882 --> 00:45:25,152

Preston: Right.

:

00:45:25,242 --> 00:45:28,542

Denis: Um, but they came, they were

there for like fucking a month.

:

00:45:28,632 --> 00:45:28,932

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:45:29,037 --> 00:45:29,377

Denis: You know?

:

00:45:29,607 --> 00:45:29,897

Yeah.

:

00:45:29,902 --> 00:45:33,612

Um, there, it's just, it's

astonishing, you know?

:

00:45:33,642 --> 00:45:36,072

Preston: Well, you know, both of you

and I are from New England, right.

:

00:45:36,072 --> 00:45:40,122

And so that famous Boston, New York

rivalry, and then after 9/11, all

:

00:45:40,122 --> 00:45:42,432

the Boston firefighters who showed

up and they're like, we're all New

:

00:45:42,432 --> 00:45:45,222

Yorkers for the minute, we'll go back

to being against you in a minute,

:

00:45:45,222 --> 00:45:47,052

but right now we're all New Yorkers.

:

00:45:47,112 --> 00:45:47,172

Yeah.

:

00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:49,392

That was, that kind of

thing is sort of amazing.

:

00:45:50,172 --> 00:45:50,622

Denis: Yeah, man.

:

00:45:50,622 --> 00:45:54,732

One of the first groups of guys

that came up to Worcester were, uh,

:

00:45:55,212 --> 00:45:58,002

New York firefighters to go through

the rubble up there, and one of the

:

00:45:58,002 --> 00:45:59,652

first groups to go through, on Climb.

:

00:45:59,652 --> 00:46:00,672

On the Rub at ground zero.

:

00:46:00,672 --> 00:46:01,032

Where

:

00:46:01,032 --> 00:46:01,212

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:46:01,252 --> 00:46:03,412

Denis: Worcester firefighters,

no rivalry at all.

:

00:46:03,412 --> 00:46:04,402

Same, same.

:

00:46:04,402 --> 00:46:04,732

Um,

:

00:46:04,852 --> 00:46:05,062

Preston: yeah.

:

00:46:05,062 --> 00:46:06,982

Denis: Same feeling, the same experience.

:

00:46:07,482 --> 00:46:10,152

Preston: I want to ask you sort of a

little bit of an esoteric question.

:

00:46:10,282 --> 00:46:12,416

So I've Recently got to know,

Hutch Parker and his wife

:

00:46:12,476 --> 00:46:14,246

Rebecca Parker out in California.

:

00:46:14,246 --> 00:46:18,601

And Rebecca is the daughter of Sydney

Pollock, the director and great director.

:

00:46:18,601 --> 00:46:21,836

She was also a producer in, in the

movie business and a storyteller.

:

00:46:22,106 --> 00:46:23,516

Denis: Her father was a great director.

:

00:46:23,546 --> 00:46:23,876

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:46:24,356 --> 00:46:27,596

And so we're sitting there having

dinner and, and I asked her, because I

:

00:46:27,596 --> 00:46:29,786

love the idea of narrative and story.

:

00:46:30,026 --> 00:46:33,267

And so I just asked her, I said, Hey,

look, you grew up around storytellers,

:

00:46:33,267 --> 00:46:34,587

literally, like your dad did it.

:

00:46:34,587 --> 00:46:35,967

You grew up with it and then you did it.

:

00:46:36,117 --> 00:46:39,387

And so what's the one thing, if

I knew nothing about narrative,

:

00:46:39,447 --> 00:46:42,297

nothing about story, what's the

one thing you wish I would know?

:

00:46:42,697 --> 00:46:44,744

And, without Even blinking,

she goes, subtext.

:

00:46:45,479 --> 00:46:46,589

I go, what do you mean?

:

00:46:46,589 --> 00:46:49,049

And she goes, listen, think

about the greatest actor in

:

00:46:49,049 --> 00:46:49,799

the history of the world.

:

00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:51,809

Just think about anyone,

male, female, doesn't matter.

:

00:46:51,809 --> 00:46:55,799

Are you mostly moved when they're

talking or when they're not talking?

:

00:46:56,309 --> 00:47:00,089

She says the most meaningful moments is

when they're not talking because we've

:

00:47:00,089 --> 00:47:04,469

built up an ecosystem, the narrative

where the audience understands the room.

:

00:47:04,469 --> 00:47:06,809

They're about to walk into the

phone, they're about to pick up

:

00:47:06,989 --> 00:47:08,279

what they're looking off camera.

:

00:47:08,339 --> 00:47:09,689

They know what's happening.

:

00:47:09,809 --> 00:47:16,349

And so that is them channeling all of that

subtext so that the audience goes, oh God.

:

00:47:16,409 --> 00:47:17,369

Or Oh yeah.

:

00:47:17,399 --> 00:47:18,809

Or whatever it is.

:

00:47:19,019 --> 00:47:22,439

And, uh, I, so I say that to you

because that was a big epiphany for me.

:

00:47:22,739 --> 00:47:26,639

So I wanted to ask you kind of the

same question, which is as, as both a

:

00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:30,899

comedian that needs to provoke people

into joy and laughter, or as an actor

:

00:47:30,899 --> 00:47:35,069

that needs to, to really be of service

to people trying to understand things.

:

00:47:35,069 --> 00:47:37,079

That's what story does,

helps people make meaning.

:

00:47:37,764 --> 00:47:42,287

If you go meta and you think what's one

of the key ingredients to narrative or

:

00:47:42,287 --> 00:47:46,337

to influence or to telling a story for

the purpose of making meaning that your

:

00:47:46,337 --> 00:47:47,977

average person might not understand.

:

00:47:48,477 --> 00:47:51,839

After a life of doing it, 30 years

of doing it, what's something that

:

00:47:51,839 --> 00:47:54,479

you would be like, Hey, you really

need to pay attention to this?

:

00:47:54,969 --> 00:47:56,923

Denis: Well, that's A great

example that she gave you.

:

00:47:57,283 --> 00:47:57,553

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:47:57,733 --> 00:47:57,913

Denis: Right.

:

00:47:57,913 --> 00:47:59,203

It's acting.

:

00:48:00,133 --> 00:48:01,663

There's so many aspects to it, right?

:

00:48:01,663 --> 00:48:01,723

Yeah.

:

00:48:02,143 --> 00:48:04,513

And there's a monologue this

big that you have to do.

:

00:48:04,513 --> 00:48:08,193

And there's a three page comedic

scene with me and you and maybe

:

00:48:08,193 --> 00:48:11,403

somebody else, and it's got,

it has to go like this, right?

:

00:48:12,273 --> 00:48:16,743

But in the end, somewhere in every

story is the job of listening, which

:

00:48:16,743 --> 00:48:18,573

is what we do in real life, right?

:

00:48:18,573 --> 00:48:22,353

So it's purely present still.

:

00:48:22,353 --> 00:48:25,713

Moment, especially on the camera,

because the camera can read everything.

:

00:48:26,103 --> 00:48:26,283

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:48:26,853 --> 00:48:27,963

Denis: The audience will feel it.

:

00:48:27,993 --> 00:48:28,353

Right.

:

00:48:28,713 --> 00:48:32,433

Um, it's me listening

to you or vice versa.

:

00:48:32,793 --> 00:48:36,753

And while, while you're doing that big

monologue, that's that long, right.

:

00:48:37,563 --> 00:48:39,453

Maybe it's me, maybe it's

two other characters.

:

00:48:39,453 --> 00:48:43,653

We need to be listening to you and

the camera needs to be with us at

:

00:48:43,653 --> 00:48:46,863

particular moments during your speech

and we need to be listening to you.

:

00:48:46,863 --> 00:48:48,393

That's the stillness of it.

:

00:48:48,813 --> 00:48:48,963

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:48:48,963 --> 00:48:51,153

Denis: You know, and it's

also in the theater as well.

:

00:48:51,153 --> 00:48:55,613

It is like you need to be so in,

immersed in the character and in the

:

00:48:55,613 --> 00:48:59,813

situation and in the moment that you

actually fucking really are, even

:

00:48:59,813 --> 00:49:02,753

though it might be the 15th fucking

time you heard the other actor do it.

:

00:49:02,963 --> 00:49:03,233

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:49:03,473 --> 00:49:04,193

Denis: Still listening.

:

00:49:04,193 --> 00:49:05,743

cause that's what the story requires.

:

00:49:05,983 --> 00:49:06,253

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:49:06,403 --> 00:49:09,133

Denis: that's so interesting that she said

that, because that's so true about Yeah.

:

00:49:09,133 --> 00:49:10,753

If you think about, um,

:

00:49:10,813 --> 00:49:13,213

Preston: so the, what's interesting,

and I'm gonna say this back to you,

:

00:49:13,218 --> 00:49:14,293

you can tell me if I got it right.

:

00:49:14,623 --> 00:49:17,233

So when I think about, uh, the people

listening, and I think about some of

:

00:49:17,233 --> 00:49:20,173

the folks that are struggling, a lot

of times when I'm sitting down with

:

00:49:20,173 --> 00:49:22,273

somebody, and if they're at, they're

at the end of their rope, right?

:

00:49:22,603 --> 00:49:25,063

There's so much pain, there's

so much intrusive thoughts,

:

00:49:25,063 --> 00:49:26,233

there's so many memories.

:

00:49:26,493 --> 00:49:30,033

That they're having trouble listening

because they're just consumed by it.

:

00:49:30,048 --> 00:49:30,338

Yeah.

:

00:49:30,343 --> 00:49:34,663

And what I will say to them is like,

hey, just try to hear someone else,

:

00:49:34,663 --> 00:49:38,853

whether it be me or whatever else, just

try to put this stuff in a place for a

:

00:49:38,853 --> 00:49:41,313

minute so that you can hear other voices.

:

00:49:41,313 --> 00:49:41,673

Right.

:

00:49:41,943 --> 00:49:47,403

I often when people say, you know, like on

my bad days when it all went wrong, like,

:

00:49:47,403 --> 00:49:48,903

what's the thing that gets you out of it?

:

00:49:48,903 --> 00:49:53,073

And I was like, sometimes on the really

dark times it's the memory of music.

:

00:49:53,073 --> 00:49:53,133

Yeah.

:

00:49:53,433 --> 00:49:55,623

It is in the deepest, darkest places.

:

00:49:55,893 --> 00:49:59,783

It is the memory of music that will

pull me towards where my family can get

:

00:49:59,783 --> 00:50:04,113

ahold of me or the memory of that story

or my grandmother giving me that talk.

:

00:50:04,473 --> 00:50:08,463

It, it is being able to hear things

at a time, you most need to hear

:

00:50:08,463 --> 00:50:09,783

things to not block people out.

:

00:50:10,023 --> 00:50:10,743

Denis: Lemme tell you something.

:

00:50:10,743 --> 00:50:11,568

I don't know who.

:

00:50:11,568 --> 00:50:14,809

I'm trying to remember right now who

said this, it was fairly recently.

:

00:50:14,859 --> 00:50:17,709

And it was related to dementia patients.

:

00:50:17,739 --> 00:50:17,949

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:50:18,169 --> 00:50:22,579

Denis: Even with severe dementia,

people will still remember a song,

:

00:50:22,789 --> 00:50:24,319

not just the feeling of the song.

:

00:50:24,469 --> 00:50:24,529

Yeah.

:

00:50:24,529 --> 00:50:25,489

But often the lyrics.

:

00:50:25,669 --> 00:50:25,729

Yeah.

:

00:50:25,849 --> 00:50:30,049

They can't remember their, their kids'

names anymore or even who they are.

:

00:50:30,319 --> 00:50:30,439

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:50:30,439 --> 00:50:33,199

Denis: But they a song from their past.

:

00:50:33,199 --> 00:50:34,459

And that the power of music.

:

00:50:34,489 --> 00:50:38,001

In the course of listening to

this, as I'm getting older, I

:

00:50:38,001 --> 00:50:39,471

love to sing when I'm driving.

:

00:50:39,591 --> 00:50:42,951

If I'm driving for four hours, I'm

probably singing most of that time Yeah.

:

00:50:42,951 --> 00:50:47,181

To the radio and dancing as I'm

driving in the, in the car seat.

:

00:50:47,301 --> 00:50:50,151

But anyway, it's good for my

voice as an actor to warm up my

:

00:50:50,151 --> 00:50:52,251

voice on a day when I'm working.

:

00:50:52,671 --> 00:50:54,531

Um, singing is a great way to do it.

:

00:50:54,711 --> 00:50:57,201

This person who was talking about

how it relates, dementia patients

:

00:50:57,201 --> 00:51:00,801

also talked about they're now

discovering that singing, even if

:

00:51:00,801 --> 00:51:03,171

you're singing sad songs, right?

:

00:51:03,261 --> 00:51:03,501

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:51:03,771 --> 00:51:08,151

Denis: Singing physically

opens up the bo it opens up

:

00:51:08,541 --> 00:51:10,161

everything in your, at your face.

:

00:51:10,161 --> 00:51:10,341

Right.

:

00:51:10,341 --> 00:51:12,681

But emotionally, it opens

up as you're doing it.

:

00:51:12,681 --> 00:51:15,771

If you enjoy it, even a sad

song, it opens up physically,

:

00:51:15,771 --> 00:51:18,441

your body, it makes you project.

:

00:51:18,951 --> 00:51:22,341

Um, and I, and I started to

realize, oh, you know what?

:

00:51:22,341 --> 00:51:25,161

It actually, I didn't think about

it, but it makes me feel better.

:

00:51:25,461 --> 00:51:25,701

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:51:26,091 --> 00:51:29,991

Denis: If I'm driving a work and it's 15

minute drive and I wanna warm my voice up.

:

00:51:30,021 --> 00:51:31,371

'cause when I get to work, I'm gonna act.

:

00:51:31,671 --> 00:51:31,941

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:51:31,941 --> 00:51:34,461

Denis: Even singing, like

fucking, you know, the saddest

:

00:51:34,461 --> 00:51:35,691

song makes me feel better.

:

00:51:35,781 --> 00:51:36,951

It makes my voice feel better.

:

00:51:36,951 --> 00:51:39,021

It warms it up, but it

also makes me feel better.

:

00:51:39,321 --> 00:51:39,471

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:51:39,476 --> 00:51:40,731

Denis: Um, I don't know why.

:

00:51:41,091 --> 00:51:45,071

I think it's because I'm accessing

something emotional and I'm addressing it.

:

00:51:45,341 --> 00:51:45,611

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:51:45,611 --> 00:51:45,701

Right.

:

00:51:46,301 --> 00:51:48,731

Denis: So now I do it every fucking day.

:

00:51:48,941 --> 00:51:49,151

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:51:49,451 --> 00:51:50,171

I think it matters.

:

00:51:50,621 --> 00:51:52,421

Denis: So here's makes a huge difference.

:

00:51:52,721 --> 00:51:52,961

Here's

:

00:51:52,961 --> 00:51:53,501

Preston: a question.

:

00:51:53,501 --> 00:51:54,011

I'm sure

:

00:51:54,011 --> 00:51:55,826

Denis: you, I'll like, I'll

give you an example of a song.

:

00:51:55,826 --> 00:51:55,946

Yeah.

:

00:51:57,116 --> 00:51:58,256

And it could be anything for anyone.

:

00:51:58,436 --> 00:52:00,056

The song Ticket to Ride, which

:

00:52:00,236 --> 00:52:00,356

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:52:00,391 --> 00:52:04,586

Denis: Is, is a great Beatles song

from, you know, when I was a kid.

:

00:52:05,006 --> 00:52:07,586

Um, and that fucking song

is right in my range.

:

00:52:07,586 --> 00:52:09,716

'cause my range is John

Lennon's range, right?

:

00:52:09,896 --> 00:52:09,956

Yeah.

:

00:52:09,956 --> 00:52:10,586

As a singer.

:

00:52:10,976 --> 00:52:11,786

And I'm a yeller.

:

00:52:11,786 --> 00:52:16,436

I'm not really a singer, but fucking

singing that song makes me fuck.

:

00:52:16,436 --> 00:52:19,346

I don't know why it makes me feel

so good, but it really is loud.

:

00:52:19,346 --> 00:52:20,186

I have to project.

:

00:52:20,546 --> 00:52:20,696

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:52:20,696 --> 00:52:22,526

Denis: So that song I sing every day.

:

00:52:22,946 --> 00:52:23,606

Preston: That's awesome.

:

00:52:23,816 --> 00:52:25,586

Denis: It makes me feel

fucking great in the morning.

:

00:52:25,946 --> 00:52:26,186

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:52:26,996 --> 00:52:27,716

Denis: I sang it this morning.

:

00:52:27,716 --> 00:52:30,447

I sang it when I was driving back

from tennis right before I saw you.

:

00:52:30,837 --> 00:52:32,397

Preston: Well, here's a question

you've probably gotten before,

:

00:52:32,397 --> 00:52:34,107

but now I'm super curious.

:

00:52:34,107 --> 00:52:37,077

As a comedian, what if

you're not feeling funny?

:

00:52:37,767 --> 00:52:37,977

Like,

:

00:52:38,187 --> 00:52:40,992

Denis: oh no, I can, listen, I

could speak for a lot of guys

:

00:52:40,992 --> 00:52:42,132

and women who work like me.

:

00:52:42,132 --> 00:52:46,450

I always, especially when I'm going on a

talk show or I'm about to do a concert.

:

00:52:46,990 --> 00:52:50,530

My whole thing is rage and

fucking shit that's bugging me.

:

00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,710

That's always been what

I do in standup comedy.

:

00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:53,100

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:56,970

Denis: And I could literally get off this

fucking zoom and get on stage right now.

:

00:52:57,150 --> 00:53:02,040

I have fucking 10 minutes of shit people

that's just from me walking around looking

:

00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,900

at the news, sports, you know, whatever

shit that my fucking kids just did.

:

00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:08,130

Something that my wife did.

:

00:53:08,135 --> 00:53:08,155

Yeah.

:

00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:09,840

Something that I did

that my wife didn't like.

:

00:53:10,170 --> 00:53:10,440

Yeah.

:

00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:11,250

No, that's easy.

:

00:53:11,850 --> 00:53:14,850

Preston: And is it just a

practice of looking for the

:

00:53:14,850 --> 00:53:16,680

funny, like seeking out the funny?

:

00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,567

Denis: No, it's just, it's

like being a bass player.

:

00:53:19,687 --> 00:53:21,384

Going to That 10,000 hours thing.

:

00:53:21,714 --> 00:53:21,804

Yeah.

:

00:53:21,804 --> 00:53:23,574

You know, that number is a great number.

:

00:53:23,574 --> 00:53:26,435

But you know, if you're a standup

comedian, musician, you need to be playing

:

00:53:26,435 --> 00:53:28,755

in front of live audiences all the time.

:

00:53:28,815 --> 00:53:32,505

Same thing with an, as an actor, like you

really should start in theater, but forget

:

00:53:32,505 --> 00:53:35,235

10,000 hours mean you need fucking 20,30.

:

00:53:35,295 --> 00:53:35,625

Right.

:

00:53:35,685 --> 00:53:38,815

And when you're young and starting

out, you, you're doing it.

:

00:53:39,565 --> 00:53:41,005

You're seeking out that stage time.

:

00:53:41,055 --> 00:53:42,915

Now you can ride the

bike whenever you want.

:

00:53:43,065 --> 00:53:43,245

Got it.

:

00:53:43,245 --> 00:53:45,495

And if you're a comedian, you

don't, some comedians write jokes.

:

00:53:45,495 --> 00:53:45,885

I don't.

:

00:53:45,885 --> 00:53:46,965

I get up and talk it out.

:

00:53:47,295 --> 00:53:47,415

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:53:47,445 --> 00:53:50,985

Denis: Um, it's just because I

think that way what you see is me

:

00:53:50,985 --> 00:53:52,605

on stage, it's me in my living room.

:

00:53:52,935 --> 00:53:55,035

I get up and I give the finger to the tv.

:

00:53:55,035 --> 00:53:56,495

. It's the drop of a hat, you know?

:

00:53:56,495 --> 00:53:56,795

Preston: Got it.

:

00:53:57,305 --> 00:53:57,515

Denis: Yeah.

:

00:53:57,545 --> 00:54:00,125

Preston: Alright, so one of the

questions as we start to close up

:

00:54:00,125 --> 00:54:03,517

um , what's one piece of advice

you can give to people for Monday?

:

00:54:03,517 --> 00:54:03,817

Right?

:

00:54:03,817 --> 00:54:05,887

So if you think of the firefighters,

you think about the concept

:

00:54:05,887 --> 00:54:09,787

of residue and this idea of

just, it's not a life sentence.

:

00:54:09,787 --> 00:54:11,437

Like there is joy in the world.

:

00:54:11,437 --> 00:54:12,907

It's not all bad, right.

:

00:54:12,957 --> 00:54:15,524

Is there any piece of advice or

recommendations you'd give them?

:

00:54:16,054 --> 00:54:20,077

Denis: Boy, I would give the

thing that we just said, which is

:

00:54:20,077 --> 00:54:22,087

music is a great way to process

:

00:54:22,507 --> 00:54:25,297

sad songs and, and happy songs.

:

00:54:25,397 --> 00:54:28,997

One of the greatest things that

I ever saw in terms of the arts.

:

00:54:29,047 --> 00:54:33,307

Man, I, I can't remember how quickly it

was after 9/11, but it was probably six

:

00:54:33,307 --> 00:54:38,067

months, it might've been five, but that

song, the Rising, that Bruce Springsteen.

:

00:54:38,067 --> 00:54:38,247

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:54:38,817 --> 00:54:42,357

Denis: I remember a firefighter friend

of mine who was really on the pile

:

00:54:42,357 --> 00:54:47,443

and down and out the entire fucking

fall, uh, after 9/11, he called me up

:

00:54:47,443 --> 00:54:50,653

and he said, but this fucking song by

Bruce Springsteen that just came out,

:

00:54:50,863 --> 00:54:52,753

he said, it changed my whole feeling.

:

00:54:53,023 --> 00:54:53,263

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:54:53,473 --> 00:54:56,353

Denis: He said, I, all of a sudden

I found joy through this song.

:

00:54:56,683 --> 00:54:59,983

That whole chorus of the song,

come on up for the rising tonight.

:

00:55:00,193 --> 00:55:02,793

I remember when I first heard the song,

I was like, how is it possible that

:

00:55:02,793 --> 00:55:07,083

somebody could translate this thing and

these feelings into this joyous thing?

:

00:55:07,263 --> 00:55:09,853

So music, music makes a huge difference.

:

00:55:10,093 --> 00:55:10,903

It really helps.

:

00:55:11,513 --> 00:55:14,312

I think it's such an emotional

connection for people.

:

00:55:14,342 --> 00:55:15,332

Happy and sad.

:

00:55:15,812 --> 00:55:19,892

That song still makes me, every time

I hear that song, it makes me, as

:

00:55:19,892 --> 00:55:21,632

you said, it's the good residue.

:

00:55:21,812 --> 00:55:22,382

Preston: Yeah, that's right.

:

00:55:22,712 --> 00:55:22,892

Denis: And

:

00:55:22,892 --> 00:55:23,552

Preston: that's what we have to pay

:

00:55:23,552 --> 00:55:24,002

attention to.

:

00:55:24,002 --> 00:55:25,142

Denis: A fucking great song, man.

:

00:55:25,172 --> 00:55:25,232

Yeah.

:

00:55:25,232 --> 00:55:25,292

Ugh.

:

00:55:26,682 --> 00:55:27,502

Preston: Well, Dr..

:

00:55:27,502 --> 00:55:30,647

Leary, I want to thank you

so much for coming on this.

:

00:55:30,647 --> 00:55:31,077

Denis: Thank you, Dr.

:

00:55:31,077 --> 00:55:31,487

Cline.

:

00:55:31,787 --> 00:55:33,257

Preston: Oh my gosh, it's amazing.

:

00:55:33,257 --> 00:55:36,327

This is the first time we've actually

talked in person and your advice back

:

00:55:36,327 --> 00:55:40,077

then was instrumental in making residue

happen, and I just can't thank you enough.

:

00:55:40,677 --> 00:55:40,917

So

:

00:55:41,037 --> 00:55:41,217

thank you.

:

00:55:41,517 --> 00:55:42,117

All right, sir.

:

00:55:42,447 --> 00:55:42,897

Denis: Alright.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania