Episode 9

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Published on:

20th Apr 2026

S6 Ep8 Adam Milano on Teamwork as Ensemble Art

What do theater, crisis response, military service, and social work have in common? More than you might guess. Adam Milano, faculty at UNC's School of Social Work, a military veteran, and theater-trained performer, joins Dan Dworkis to discuss how high-performance teamwork under pressure looks a lot like ensemble art.

In this episode:

  • You can't turn off the human part — and you shouldn't
  • Invisible excellence: the best work goes unnoticed
  • Your job is to make your teammates look brilliant
  • Your third emergency today is someone else's first

This conversation was released in partnership with The Emergency Mind Podcast and originally aired on February 16, 2026. If this conversation was useful, the best thing you can do is subscribe and leave a quick rating or review — it helps us reach the teams that need to hear these conversations most.

Transcript
Preston:

Welcome to the Teamcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Preston Cline, director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

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Here we discuss all things

mission critical teams.

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These are teams of four to 12 people,

indigenously, trained and educated, who

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solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets where the consequence of

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failure is death or catastrophic loss.

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With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

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zones to emergency rooms dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

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and sustainability of these teams.

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We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

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language and frameworks to transfer

critical off and unspoken knowledge.

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Whether you're on a mission critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

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the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

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you to perform when it matters most.

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Thank you for joining us and

hope you enjoy the Teamcast.

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Dan: Hi folks.

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I'm Dan Dworkis, and my

guest today is Adam Milano.

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Now Adam is faculty at the University of

North Carolina's School of Social Work.

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Where he has core faculty with

their global social development

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innovation research center.

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Sorry, I had to think like really

hard about saying all of those words.

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And the Assistant director of Global

Engagement, he's also teaching faculty

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with a mental health and higher education

professional program at Harvard Graduate

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School of Education, a teaching fellow

for the Harvard University Graduate

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School of Education, online Educational

Leadership Program, volunteer faculty

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for the Warrior Scholar Project and

Chair of Special Initiatives for the

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Harvard Veteran Alumni Organization.

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As you can tell from that, Adam's a

gentleman that wears a lot of hats and has

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had a super interesting interdisciplinary,

like, Renaissance man style background.

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More than all that I can say on a personal

level that he's incredibly engaging

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and interesting to talk to, and I'm

lucky to have him on the podcast here.

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Adam, thanks for joining.

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Adam: Thanks so much for having me.

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Delighted to be here.

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Dan: Yeah, absolutely.

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So can you back translate

everything I just said for us?

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What is it that you actually do?

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And then we'll get into how you did it,

and we'll get into some of this like

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interdisciplinary magic, which might or

might not end up being the title of this

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episode, depending on where it goes.

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Adam: Yeah, I, I love that.

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I'll start with the, uh, funny story.

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I was trying recently to figure out what

I'd do and more importantly, figure out

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how to say in a sentence, there's a.

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Theme in academia where when you

introduce yourself, you say, this is my

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name and this is my area of research.

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And I was sitting in a line

and illustrious colleagues

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over and over again.

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It would come to me and I'd

be like, I just panicked.

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And so in the age of ai, I put my

CV into AI and I said like, can you

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just tell me in a sentence what I do?

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They gave me some good options,

but as is often the case, it

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was just a little bit off.

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So I think I'm still working

on it, but ultimately.

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I am a practitioner scholar, so I

deeply enjoy learning, teaching,

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reading, researching, writing about

these ideas, but also try to remain

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in the practice as much as possible.

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Bridging that idea theory to practice

specifically in how social work,

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storytelling, crisis response, and then

the ideas of loneliness and belonging,

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how all of those intersect and the

more I study them, the more it's like

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the Dunning Kruger effect, right?

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The more you expose yourself

to this concept, you're like,

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this is incredibly complicated.

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And so what I'm enjoying about studying

and learning these things is the

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more I dive into them, the less I

understand, but the more connection

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that I see and the more I'm trying

to just piece find things together,

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Dan: Man, love it.

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Love it.

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And we intersected in the middle

of a project where we were working

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with individuals who had, who were

currently and had previously gone

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through a wide variety of pretty

intense circumstances and who were

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engaged in, and I'm being a little bit

deliberately vague here, and that's fine.

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Engaged in the application of knowledge

and teams under high pressure situations.

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And in that context, we were talking a lot

about the arc of telling your own story,

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telling the story of how you connect

to the broader themes of your life.

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How do you bridge the distance

between the current work you're doing

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and your sort of overall sense of

self and the universe around you?

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And the theme of storytelling

is one that we've touched on a

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few times on the podcast, but

it, we keep coming back to it.

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'cause it frankly, 'cause it keeps

being so important and it's hard to

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avoid and it's hard to teach and it's

a little interesting to engage with.

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How did you first get involved

in storytelling and what made

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you want to like pick this

up as a tool to start using?

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Adam: Yeah, I appreciate that question.

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I think as you talked about, we

keep coming back to storytelling

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story is innately human.

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That whatever field it is, we use

story, whether it's to teach or to make

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meaning or to communicate knowledge.

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So all of the fields I'm involved in,

whether that's social worker, education,

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crisis response that, or emergency

rooms, whatever it is, there's story

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that's gonna be a piece of that.

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When you ask, how did I first

get involved in storytelling?

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I think I came from a family of, uh,

of great storytellers of not only

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making meaning through story, but

I come from a family of educators

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and of those that communicate how

the beauty of life and the wisdom of

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life through story, through example.

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I then was involved in

theater as we all do.

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We find something we're interested in

when we're in elementary school, middle

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school, and I certainly enjoyed playing

sports and enjoy these other things, but

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I really found a home in the theater.

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And as is the case when you are young

and you're developing and figuring out

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what to do, I really attached myself to

this idea, this home that I performer

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at high school as well, and then

continue to study theater in college.

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And that's where that love of story, but

also maybe some of those new people skills

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of how to tell a story really developed.

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One of the beauties I think of any

subject, but I think especially

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of theater, is you are forced to

really reconcile with who you are.

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What you bring physically, emotionally,

how available your emotions are, your

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ability to communicate, maybe some of the

physical or vocal takes that you have,

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strengths that you have, weaknesses that

you have, and we can translate so many of

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those lessons that I learned in theater

classroom and theater studios to all of

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the work that I've done and the way that

I explain things or approach problems.

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To give a really quick example, the

idea of receiving feedback and being

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able to react to it right away,

or having an intense situation.

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I think sometimes people say, oh, is that

something you learned in the military?

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People picture those drill sergeants

just being in your face and you

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stone busy and you just reacting.

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Absolutely.

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I learned and grew that in the military,

but I think at first learned that

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like on stage as a 13, 14-year-old.

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You pour your heart out in an

emotional scene, and the director,

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is saying, beautiful but could you

do it again, but please walk here

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to here and you just go, got it.

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And you go and you do that again.

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And I think that's where I

first learned skills like that.

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Dan: It's so interesting, right?

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'cause I think when you start thinking

about performance, and a lot of the

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arc of the Emergency Mind podcast

is in some way thinking about a

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moment of performance, like a high

stakes moment, and there's a concept.

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That I certainly had, that a lot

of people I run into have, which

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is that your job is to actually

not be human in that space, right?

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To shut the human part of you down.

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And we had an episode early on

called Humans, not Robots, Dr.

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Hanley Brumfield.

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And we talked in there about how both

of us used to go to work and think

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about, okay, what I'm gonna do is

I'm gonna turn my human part off.

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Now I'm gonna go work.

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Then hopefully I'll remember how to like

where I put that switch and I'm gonna turn

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it back on again at the end of the day.

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And as if that's possible.

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And not only as if it's possible,

but as if it's desirable, as if it's

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like the right way to do things.

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And I think that there are probably

a lot of folks out there listening

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to this that still hold or that

hold some part of that belief still.

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And there's an interesting dichotomy in

there between that idea and the idea that

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you're saying that no, actually like.

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To connect to that through story, that

sense of yourself is like a critical

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piece of your ability to perform at

a high level at any of these tasks.

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How does that strike you?

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Where do you go with that?

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What do you do with that?

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Adam: I say this with the caveat to say

every time I speak with someone, let's

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say they're on a mission critical team, or

they respond to crises, or they do these

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things that if you watch the tape back,

seem more than human right, seem super.

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Every time I talk to 'em,

I learn one new thing.

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I learned one new way about how

this human brain works or how their

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perception of their brain works.

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And so I say this, this is

my understanding, this is

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my thought on it right now.

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Do it again in 10 years, but

it'll be different, right?

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Which is, I agree with what

I heard the premise of it.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, which

I don't think we can ever fully shut

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our human part down the same way that.

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I was introduced to the idea of

work life balance as you have

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work and then you have life.

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But my life is still happening while I'm

working, so I can't actually pause it.

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So then what are we talking about?

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And I found that if I thought about a

work life balance and I turned work on,

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I turned life off and then work ends.

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I actually found out that I was resenting.

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I'd go to work and I'd resent it . I'd

start resenting life 'cause I had

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this project I was really pumped

about at work that I can't work on

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anymore because it's "life time".

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When we recognize that these things don't

have to act in conflict of each other,

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that instead of it being like a seesaw

balance, whether it's work life balance

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or that's human robot balance, or being

super human versus just being out of

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balance, I think when we look at it more

harmony or like this like semi-permeable

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membrane that things can get through.

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I think that's where we get, at

least in my opinion, a little bit

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more effective, but also a little

bit more at peace with those ideas.

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So if I am responding to something that's

requiring me to, let's use the word like

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compartmentalize or act in a certain

way, the one I talk about all the time,

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an emotion might come up for you, but

that emotion cannot necessarily be fully

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dealt with and processed in that moment.

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Which means you might have to

like make decisions that if the

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world revolved around you, you

could just be like, one second.

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I've felt something.

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I have to process it.

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I think probably in the moment you can

catch it and you can move forward, but

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I think the more you aware you are of

that and the more effective you can be.

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I work a lot in higher education and

one of the notable things about higher

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education is that you're in a community.

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People are living, life

happens, emergencies happen.

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The first people that react to those

emergencies sometimes are RAs, which

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are barely often that 21-year-old

next door who doesn't have any kind of

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emergency response training, but they're

the first person to make the decision

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to then call those first responders.

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One of the things that talked about in

training with them is the more aware

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you are of your kind of emotional

and physical response to things, you

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can actually change the way, not only

do you process that situation, but

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other people process that situation.

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So if I feel fear and I'm not

aware, I try to push it away.

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Maybe my shoulders are up, maybe I'm

yelling at people, maybe I'm doing this.

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I'm just not aware of it.

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'cause I'm Not scared, right?

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But if I feel that fear

and I go, I'm scared.

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So let me be mindful that my

shoulders are relaxed and instead

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of pitching my voice here, I'm

just pitching it right here inside.

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I keep be feeling on fire.

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If I'm talking to you like this,

the situation's under control, I

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need you to go call this person.

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I'm gonna stay with this person.

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I think the more aware you are what

those real emotions are, the more

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you have the ability certainly not

to control them, then not to have

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those emotions dictate your behavior.

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Right?

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That there can be that separation.

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I'm feeling this, but

my behavior can be this.

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Right now.

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It doesn't need to be, this equals this.

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Dan: Yeah, there's a difference between

I'm gonna take whatever I'm feeling

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right now and it's gospel and this

is everything that exists and I'm

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gonna let this thing run the show.

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Versus, no, I don't feel anything.

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Leave me alone.

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Let's get back to work.

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Versus somewhere in the middle where

it's, oh, I feel this, and also now

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we're gonna go do something else.

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'cause this is what needs to get done.

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And I think there's a, there's,

there's an art obviously to

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balancing that and, and in some

sense to say that is nothing new or.

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It's not a revelation and like

everybody listening to this does

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some version of that already.

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But to do it consciously as a skill I

think is somewhat interesting 'cause

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it's not, there were certainly times

in my arc where I'm not sure, I always

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thought that was a skill, right?

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Sometimes I was like, oh, that

person is really good at that.

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This person is not really good at that.

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Maybe that person was me, right?

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But, or I have to be better at this.

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I'm just gonna figure my way through it.

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But the idea that you can work

on and manipulate that and that.

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One of the, I think the reason we're on

this whole arc is as you're describing

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like your time in theater to begin

with, like that requires a leaning into

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these spaces and a sort of a fearless

ability to like probe into that space

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that like, I don't think a lot of people

in the paths that we're describing

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have done that with like emotion and

feeling and thought in the same way that

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maybe they've done that with math, like

whatever the other, whatever that is.

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Adam: Yeah, I think that's really

interesting and I think that's true in

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that we don't sit there and analyze it.

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But I think all of us are aware to a

certain extent how we want to appear in a

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situation and we take choices to do that.

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Now there's a version of hearing

that sounds really self-conscious.

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I wanna look cool.

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So let me act this better, but I think

there's also a version where we can

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watch a mentor, or someone who's really

good, handle a situation and we could

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be like, gosh, they looked so calm.

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And then when we're in that situation,

we can even subconsciously be like, oh,

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I remember that mentor at this app just

was like, alright, that's what we say.

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And then we just become them in

a way that's not, maybe it's not

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super cognitive, so I don't want

this to sound like I'm saying.

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See crisis drop shoulder,

like lower breadth.

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These are also really practice things.

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I remember once we were.

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I had just started a job and we were, we

got the call that there was this emergency

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happening and we were like, how we're

walking towards it and I was brand new to

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this team and I thought, we're just gonna

take this second before we walk in to just

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not make the crisis about us and not burst

through the doors, all out of breath.

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And we didn't just went straight in.

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And I do remember that moment

consciously going, I don't know where

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my heart rate is right now, but it's

too high for me to product s patient.

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So let me.

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Take those two seconds behind these

people and beat double doors closed.

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Just take that big breath, then

shake out my hand so that I

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come in loose to this situation.

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And I think taking those two seconds

to just checking with yourself before

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you go is, I also don't want to sound

like I'm saying, do these things

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so that you don't feel the anxiety.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Dan: Sure.

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Adam: There's a, there's this great

James Earl Jones quote, then he

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talked about the more he did theater.

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The less nervous he felt and the

less nervous he felt, the more

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scared he was to go on stage.

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He used to do this thing.

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As the legend goes, right, he do this

thing in New York where he would be

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in his dressing room, he'd get ready,

be this consummate professional,

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and then he'd walk as close to the

curtain as possible so you could

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hear the house fill with people.

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And when he heard the din of the

crowd, he'd pick out specific voices

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that he'd start to feel in his body,

then the level of nervousness, he'd be

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like, okay, now I'm ready to perform.

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Now of course, performing means

shedding all of that nervousness in

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its own way, but letting that be here.

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And so I love that, not only because

it's that idea of this can work with

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you and you can kinda change your body

around it, but also this, the idea of

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it's okay to feel the in these moments.

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In fact, that can work as

this superpower to you.

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If it works for the guy who plays

Darth Vader, it can work for me.

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Dan: That's a interesting litmus test.

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I like it.

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Yeah, there's some sense where

we're talking about like the

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Yerkes Dodson curve effect, right?

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The intuition here is being a

guitar string, like not too tight,

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not too loose, but like having

the right sort of tone to it.

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I think that's really important.

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I, I certainly wish I'd

learned that earlier.

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I, I have a very vivid memory

of one of the first cardiac

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arrests that I was involved in.

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I was brand new to being a doctor,

and I was just like jacked up on

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adrenaline and like trying to do all

this stuff and the senior was just

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brilliantly controlling the room and

looks at me and goes, "Dan, really good.

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I want you to slow down.

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Why don't you try to give those

breaths at about six to eight a minute.

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Can you do that for me?"

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And I was just like, what is happening?

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Like this person is an alien.

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Like how in the world?

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But then I was like,

wait, there, I don't know.

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I could probably be like that.

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And that was one of the first

sort of thoughts of, wow,

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maybe I could be like that.

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What does that look like?

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How do you get from here to there?

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Is it technical knowledge?

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Sure.

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But is it's also all this other stuff.

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It's not just technical things.

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Okay, so Let's rewind here for a minute.

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So you did a bunch of theater.

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We've also put a lot of other

stakes on the table that we

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haven't really dealt with.

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We have a military part of the career.

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We have crisis response and social work.

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We have storytelling.

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Help me weave these things

together a little more.

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Adam: Sure.

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I went To performing arts high school,

and then I studied theater in college, and

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there's a term, I actually learned it from

Jason Sudeikis just when he was doing an

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interview, it's called The Ensemble Arts.

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He talks about this idea

of improvisational theater

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being the ensemble arts.

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I applied this retroactively, but I think

what really attracted me to theater was

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the attraction to the ensemble arts.

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This idea that you have this product

you're gonna do, it's gonna be in

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front of, depending on the show,

six people to thousands of people,

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and you're working on it together.

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And it doesn't matter whether you're

sick to that day, whether it's rainy out

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or sunny out, whether you are injured

or not injured, you're doing the show

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at a high quality every single time.

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And it takes a million different parts.

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I remember talking to a lighting designer.

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I was on the performing side of things

when I first started talking to a

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lighting designer, and they said the best

compliment someone could ever give me

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that they didn't notice the lights, which

meant that I did my role on this show.

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It's like, what an awesome way

to contribute to this team.

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In college, I started doing that RA

work and I just loved it and didn't

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know you could make a career out of

supporting other people and helping.

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I was really drawn to

military service at that time.

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The plan was right after college

to to go into the military, and

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I had my packet all ready to go.

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I was about to graduate college.

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I had worked as an actor for

most summers leading up to that.

366

:

I did some outdoor guiding during college

as well, and I was about to graduate and a

367

:

great mentor said to me, as great mentors

do, he said, instead of gonna the military

368

:

work a job here at the college for a year.

369

:

And I said, no, I have this packet going.

370

:

US military's been around since 1775.

371

:

It's not going anywhere.

372

:

Work this job for a

year and then go do it.

373

:

And again, as good mentors

do, he had this big plan.

374

:

I worked for the job to be a a commons

residential advisor, which is essentially

375

:

like community director for the college.

376

:

I was living in a freshman dorm.

377

:

I oversaw the RAs and my whole

job was to build community

378

:

and be supportive and help.

379

:

Especially first year

students, this transition.

380

:

But then there is also this component

of responding to crisis on campus.

381

:

And what I think so notable about

that is you're supposed to be this

382

:

kind of even community support.

383

:

I got you.

384

:

And then when the worst thing that could

happen happens, you also go into action.

385

:

I went to a very small school and

worked for a very small school.

386

:

The way I learned to respond to crisis.

387

:

That I'd be walking through the

hallway and everyone just like

388

:

having a good time at college.

389

:

So I'd get the crisis call, I'd

hear what it is, I'd be heading

390

:

out, walking past people, being

like, oh my gosh, how'd the test go?

391

:

Did you have fun?

392

:

Whatever.

393

:

And then when you're at a building,

you're in a whole other world.

394

:

And that's where I think I

first learned that lesson of

395

:

Don't Make Crisis about You.

396

:

I think there's that moment.

397

:

Especially those new to this work where

they get the call and it's like the bat

398

:

signal and they're like, this is it.

399

:

And you see the posturing or the

running something where you don't

400

:

really need to run whatever it is.

401

:

And I just found like that's really

just for you to feel important as

402

:

compared to just you can stay relaxed,

go do a great job working that job.

403

:

I loved it.

404

:

I worked it with my two best friend

in the world and we operated a lot

405

:

off of like intuition and stick.

406

:

Then also on phone calls with each other.

407

:

What did we do?

408

:

Well, what did you do?

409

:

I was inspired by that work and

that job that I decided to go

410

:

to grad school for social work.

411

:

Didn't go to active duty, went

into the reserves, uh, and then

412

:

as soon as I got my degree joined

active duty as a social worker.

413

:

While I was in the military, did

the doctor of social work and

414

:

went back to study some education,

administration, leadership.

415

:

Came out, went back into higher ed

administration and now I'm a faculty.

416

:

That's how that trajectory went.

417

:

Themes all over the place.

418

:

But at the time, of course,

it seems like this stray line.

419

:

Dan: We were talking about that before

we turn the record button on here,

420

:

that sort of the idea of retroactively

spinning the threads of your life into

421

:

a strong cable and being like, yeah,

it totally all connects to each other.

422

:

Even though like at the time you're like,

I dunno, this seems like a good idea.

423

:

I'm gonna go over here.

424

:

Adam: That ties into story, right?

425

:

We make meaning out of the things, and

I think especially in the Western way of

426

:

thinking, we try to make it linear, right?

427

:

There's this idea of story

that I actually first heard

428

:

from Trey Parker or Matt Stone.

429

:

They were doing a presentation, they're

the writers of South Park and they talked

430

:

about this story should be like, this

happens, so this happens, so this happens.

431

:

I did this and then that.

432

:

I think when we talk about our

life, we go, I did this, so this.

433

:

Meanwhile, if we actually rewound,

we'd be sitting there in front of a

434

:

job board or with a partner or whoever

being like, I don't know what to do.

435

:

I remember asking an mentor at once,

how'd you decide you wanted to do this?

436

:

He said, I dunno.

437

:

Really Wasn't sure.

438

:

Just wandered around.

439

:

I was like, God, there has to

be more choice to this thing.

440

:

There's a form of therapy called narrative

therapy out of, I think Australia or New

441

:

Zealand by this guy named Mike White.

442

:

He talks about this idea that our life

is the infinite pieces of data, and

443

:

you picture on the screen all these

different data points and that when

444

:

we tell our life story, we tend to

pick a few data points and then draw

445

:

that line and we go, that's my life.

446

:

Whereas if we had picked different

data points, maybe at the

447

:

different "and so this", right?

448

:

Maybe it's a different "and then",

and in fact maybe we do this like

449

:

deficit based version of our life.

450

:

Oh, I failed this.

451

:

I ended up here.

452

:

Maybe there's a strength

based version of that, right?

453

:

Maybe there's this meaning we put to

something where I said, we just picked

454

:

different data points, we can really

work this different meaning, and I

455

:

like that idea because if you say,

Hey, how'd we get from here to here?

456

:

You're all over the place.

457

:

I can say, I did this and this mentor

said this, so I did this, which

458

:

taught me this, so, I did this.

459

:

In reality, a million more data

points and probably a different

460

:

story if I were to rewind and

find what those data points were.

461

:

Dan: Yeah, no, absolutely.

462

:

But to your point about the fact that we

can draw different lines through it gives

463

:

us the ability, in some sense, to choose

and to wrestle with those different story

464

:

arcs and try them on for size, allow us

the flexibility to reinterpret things,

465

:

which I think is critically important

when we do work in and out of crisis,

466

:

because there are storylines that are.

467

:

Really dark and destructive and

very seductive in their ability

468

:

to like pull you into them.

469

:

And the fact that you have choices

in that space is easily overlooked

470

:

and incredibly important and,

471

:

Adam: and how we make meaning of things.

472

:

And there's, and even how, like

how confirmation bias impacts

473

:

decisions we make or how we

choose to process something.

474

:

I know you, you've talked about bias

before in this podcast and in your book

475

:

as well, like bias is its own version.

476

:

Story, right?

477

:

Like we've gotten information.

478

:

Even the order in which

you get information

479

:

Dan: sure

480

:

Adam: can dictate the

choices that we make.

481

:

There's this, there's a book called,

it's by Will Store, but it's about story

482

:

time for the science of storytelling.

483

:

And he talks about like our

natural thing is human for

484

:

ourselves, the center of a story.

485

:

Whereas I find very often if I remove

myself from the center of whatever

486

:

kind of emergency or crisis situation

is occurring, I actually work a lot.

487

:

Better.

488

:

I'm not the main character.

489

:

The crisis is not about me.

490

:

I may be playing a supplemental

role here and very often as someone

491

:

who's not an EMT and not a doctor,

I am playing a supplemental role.

492

:

I remember one of the first calls I

ever went on, I was like, what can I do?

493

:

And the EMT looked at me and

he goes, what can you do?

494

:

And I up holding a door.

495

:

I also learned so, so

much in that one moment.

496

:

Telling people to hold the

door is important eventually.

497

:

But also it's so great to give someone

who wants to help a job, especially

498

:

when they're looking at you with eyes

the size of quarters, and they're

499

:

like, what could I do to help?

500

:

And you're like, I need you to go to

that other room and open that door.

501

:

And they're like, I got it.

502

:

And you're like, first of all,

I know that door's gonna be open

503

:

the way they just said yes to me.

504

:

But also definitely we might need them

to get out of this moment right here.

505

:

They're eager to help and standing right

between me and the thing I'm trying to do.

506

:

Dan: N not everybody in one of

these ensemble art pieces is on

507

:

stage at the same time, right?

508

:

Adam: Absolutely.

509

:

There's a guy named Del Close who

wrote the book Truth in Comedy, and

510

:

he's the father in improv comedy,

and he talks about this idea that

511

:

as an improviser, it's my job,

you and I are on stage together.

512

:

It's my job to make you like the

best improviser in the world, and

513

:

it's your job to make me look like

the best improviser in the world.

514

:

Then if you're doing that, the audience is

seeing this the world's best comedy duo.

515

:

And I think that's true with

any team that you're working in,

516

:

any situation you're working in.

517

:

I'm gonna do what I can to set you up

for success and you're gonna do what

518

:

you can to set me up for success.

519

:

So you guys spend something naming for

scholars of like higher ed, uh, team, I

520

:

think they also work with business teams.

521

:

They talk about idea, like loyalty to

the mission and greater loyalty for the

522

:

person, which is if we're working to

whatever, it's respond to the crisis.

523

:

Put on the show, teach the class.

524

:

If we're all working to do, that

means supporting each other.

525

:

And if we're all working towards making

each other be the best of what we

526

:

can do, everything goes super well.

527

:

Mm-hmm.

528

:

And in my experience, the reading

things goes off the tracks.

529

:

If somebody tries to go whatever, take the

guitar solo when it wasn't their moment.

530

:

Right.

531

:

Or the supervisor comes in the room

so they spotlight ranger, whatever

532

:

they're doing, they're like,

gosh, things are going so well.

533

:

And about us demonstrating how

good we are as compared to us.

534

:

She's done a great job.

535

:

Dan: Yeah.

536

:

Can we push more on this idea about

teamwork as, and especially teamwork

537

:

under pressure, as ensemble art?

538

:

Adam: Sure.

539

:

Dan: And we're talking

the sense of, all right.

540

:

Loyalty to mission, the components

of devotion to making the other

541

:

people on the team look good.

542

:

The concept of not making

the crisis about you.

543

:

The thread from our friend in the

lighting department being like, my

544

:

job is to be excellent and invisible.

545

:

What other things go into that space?

546

:

So if, if I was gonna tell you, Adam,

I need you to, I need you to teach

547

:

ensemble tactics to this group of

people, what else goes in that space?

548

:

Adam: Yeah, I'll give you one really.

549

:

First of all, I think

it's infinite things.

550

:

Mm-hmm.

551

:

The more work that I've done, the more

I've remembered the training things

552

:

from theater, and it's just, I do think

that there's a, there's an untapped

553

:

area of ensemble arts translating to.

554

:

Mission critical teams or crisis or

sponsor or whatever you wanna call it.

555

:

One really explicit example, and

I can remember this I yesterday,

556

:

so I went to high school and then

I went, I did my major in theater.

557

:

So all of my language and the way

that I communicated things were

558

:

three of these theater classes; like

that was like the way I came up.

559

:

And you Did Marine Corps trainings

before you're supposed to go over to OCS.

560

:

And I went to my first Marine

Corps training, Saturday training.

561

:

I remember we were doing some

kind of exercise and he said

562

:

something like, I need you to

keep your eyes th and look at me.

563

:

And that's one of those like

Marine Corps things that just

564

:

breaks your brain and people panic.

565

:

And I remember being like,

"oh yeah, that's soft focus".

566

:

Like I remember doing that when I

was 13 at Bergen County Academies.

567

:

Rebecca Star, our incredible acting

teacher, having us walk around

568

:

the room with our eyes forward,

but keeping in, like having

569

:

everything around you be there.

570

:

That also showed up in athletics

as well, that idea of soft focus,

571

:

but it didn't have words, right?

572

:

In that Marine Corps training, you

can, it's keep your eyes forward and

573

:

look at me and, and people panicked.

574

:

Whereas in the era we go have soft focus,

open up your aperture, which is that idea.

575

:

Be aware of those things that

are happening around you.

576

:

Dan: So, one answer to this is that

we look at people that are already

577

:

doing ensemble art in some sense,

and we're like, how do you get there?

578

:

What are the building blocks of it?

579

:

'Cause there's a whole...

580

:

I'll admit, I have long thought about

resuscitation as a team sport as

581

:

opposed to as a individual thread.

582

:

Part of that came from how I was trained.

583

:

Part of that came from working in places

where you're the only doctor, and so

584

:

you can't possibly only do it yourself.

585

:

Adam: Sure.

586

:

Dan: You have to have the rest

of the, like, even if you wanted

587

:

to be the only guitar solo, like

there's, it's just never gonna work.

588

:

But the idea of treating it as

ensemble art is really appealing.

589

:

I feel like we've had at least one

episode called The Art of Resuscitation.

590

:

We might have had two over the years, but

it's interesting to think about who else

591

:

does ensemble art and how do you do it?

592

:

Because at some level, this is....

593

:

promise this is gonna come back

to what we're talking about.

594

:

But at some level, this is also the

conversation about drone swarms, right?

595

:

You have swarms of drones and they

have to communicate with each other

596

:

and they have to accomplish a mission.

597

:

And they're each autonomous agents

with their own capacity, and somehow

598

:

you have to get them to behave in a

coherent function, and that's emergent

599

:

as the space changes around them.

600

:

And it's the same conversation as.

601

:

Human machine teaming and AI and all

these other things that we talk about.

602

:

It's all this idea of each person can

bring one piece of the puzzle, and so

603

:

what are the skill sets at a really

fundamental level that you have to do.

604

:

The other day we were breaking them

down into, let's see if I remember this.

605

:

I made it up.

606

:

Let's see if I remember this.

607

:

I operate, communicate, coordinate, and.

608

:

I think the last one was

supposed to be evolve.

609

:

We made it recalibrate so it

like matches everything else,

610

:

right?

611

:

Yeah.

612

:

But it was basically, okay, you

gotta do your job, you gotta

613

:

communicate your information with

the other players around you.

614

:

You have to then coordinate.

615

:

So it's not just enough to

tell each other, you have to

616

:

act on that shared knowledge.

617

:

And then you have to do some recalibration

step, which is like your OODA loop.

618

:

Or you're like, yeah, hey, what

is this working or is this not?

619

:

And if you take it to the bare bones like

that, then you're getting into, alright,

620

:

how do we teach people those things?

621

:

And I put that idea of soft focus

or eyes forward, look at me or

622

:

in jiujitsu you talk about like a

feeling with all the parts of your

623

:

body or sort of whatever it is.

624

:

Yeah.

625

:

Or your sort of like sense

of your position and space.

626

:

Not just proprioception, or,

or even in chess, the strength

627

:

or weakness sense or whatever.

628

:

It's like these core skills.

629

:

This is some version.

630

:

I'm drifting a little bit here.

631

:

You can tell 'cause my

mind's going a bunch.

632

:

But these are some version of the

capacity to communicate mixed with

633

:

a little bit of operate and then

edging towards coordinate probably.

634

:

But I dunno.

635

:

That's enough.

636

:

Please tell me what you think about it.

637

:

Adam: Yep.

638

:

I love that.

639

:

I love that so much.

640

:

I think there's something, I was about

to say the silliest thing, which is

641

:

there's something both really low

stakes about performing that gives

642

:

you a really high stakes feeling.

643

:

No one's life is in danger if a

show goes badly, but tell that to

644

:

your brain when you're on stage in

front of a thousand people, right?

645

:

No one's going to die

if you forget a line.

646

:

But I promise you work two months on

a show, get on stage and go up on a

647

:

line in front of a house of 100 people.

648

:

You will feel like this is

a life or death situation.

649

:

And so as of course, I'm thinking

of the thing so live right now,

650

:

but as you think about training

for these high stake moments.

651

:

Put 'em in an improv show and

put 'em with the people that are

652

:

gonna be reacting to these things.

653

:

It's gonna feel really high stakes when

you're trying to make people laugh.

654

:

You know when you're

bombing on stage, right?

655

:

Completely full house, and the joke

gets and nobody laughs and you're

656

:

like, oh, I am panicking, right?

657

:

One of the examples I give, I think

you call it suboptimal conditions, but

658

:

when you're responding to something

and like things can't really slow

659

:

down, even if things aren't perfect,

you can't pause and be like, time out.

660

:

I was performing a show in college and I

got really into like fight choreography,

661

:

like directing stunt work a bit.

662

:

And so there was this big fight that I

choreographed and of course I was 18 and

663

:

so I was choreographing things, moves

that I was doing that I had no business

664

:

doing and I could pull off on it every

two times, which is not a good ratio.

665

:

And put this big move center stage where

like the fight kind of red seas and then I

666

:

get hit and I like do this big flip over.

667

:

It's really cool moment.

668

:

I did it a bunch of times and I do it, I

think it was their second to last show.

669

:

I'm flipping over and I land just

right on the back of my shoulder

670

:

and I remember like being down there

popping up, looking upstage and like

671

:

the person who I was programming with,

and this is that idea of communication.

672

:

She knew by the way I fell that something

was horribly wrong though I look at

673

:

her and I just remember like just

tensing my muscles a bit and feeling

674

:

like, okay, I'm not B blacked out.

675

:

I didn't fall off the stage.

676

:

And I just remember looking at her.

677

:

And just going, I guess we keep going?

678

:

There's something about that show

and that community and that fumble

679

:

where you feel like, you know what?

680

:

We have to do this in

sub optimal condition.

681

:

We have to push through.

682

:

Dan: Yeah.

683

:

So what's buried in that story, right?

684

:

That person had watched you fall a

number of times in other ways and was

685

:

able to read the cues that something was

wrong, and you were able to have this

686

:

invisible piece of communication about it.

687

:

And so teams that spend a lot of

time working together can develop

688

:

that skillset through repetition

of the same or similar tasks.

689

:

So if you and I are gonna do a thing

together, that's why we do rehearsal.

690

:

That's why we do practice.

691

:

That's why we do that, because

hey, we're able to read each

692

:

other's signals a little better.

693

:

This gets more complicated when we start

introducing things like swarm teams

694

:

where you and I have never met before.

695

:

We've never done this thing before,

and now we're trying to have this

696

:

communication and coordination

and synergy and I'm like, I dunno.

697

:

Is that what your shoulder

always sounds like?

698

:

I'm not honestly sure.

699

:

I supposed to fall.

700

:

Yeah, like our cues have to

be a little more obvious.

701

:

Our protocols for communication have

to be set up a little bit differently.

702

:

If you want to geek out in math

instead of theater here for a minute.

703

:

Like your series of priors and your

particle belief system or whatever you

704

:

want to use for it, has to set up in a

different way so that you can be like, all

705

:

right, what do I expect to happen and what

am I looking for and what's my next step?

706

:

But ultimately, it's still this

skill of performance as an ensemble

707

:

of sensing and acting at the same

time as you're moving forward

708

:

Adam: and allowing Yourself to

communicate these intangible ways, right?

709

:

It's this, it's like the

both and that exists, right?

710

:

So like establishing

closed loop communication.

711

:

Establishing clear routine.

712

:

Clear communication is vital.

713

:

Knowing the policy that we follow

while also allowing those intangible

714

:

communication pieces to occur.

715

:

So you seem like you're super on top of

this, I'm not gonna mess up that flow

716

:

because I think you're in a flow state.

717

:

You're doing great.

718

:

I see you shaking, or I see your eye.

719

:

Maybe something just feels off

and I feel the impulse to just go

720

:

"you got it, you got this" right?

721

:

Or the impulse just to touch you, right?

722

:

There's this kind of theme in theater of

breathing together before you go on stage.

723

:

I don't know if this is science based,

but Adam Driver has this idea that when

724

:

you see a show, the audience actually,

when they're really invested in the show,

725

:

they all are breathing at the same rate.

726

:

I would love to test this or

see if there's a study that

727

:

does, do we do this together?

728

:

I think that idea of breathing together,

even if you're, it's like a swarm team

729

:

or you work at a same place that taking,

hey, let's take a breath in and out.

730

:

That lifeblood fills you like

you're doing that piece together.

731

:

I also think whatever the intangible

thing is, and maybe this is something

732

:

you've explored in your work,

when the stakes get a little bit

733

:

higher, I think we communicate in

those ways a little bit faster.

734

:

I'll give one quick example and it's

this warmup game called middle word.

735

:

And what would happen is you and I

would look at each other and we'd

736

:

say, let's just give a random word.

737

:

So we'd be like, whatever, tree and truck.

738

:

And I would say like on three, let's

say the word that exists in the middle

739

:

of that word, and it wouldn't be the

combination of those words, right?

740

:

But it would just be

some abstract thought.

741

:

And so the way it goes a million times.

742

:

As you work with a team, it takes

you like five or six times and funny,

743

:

and then you're like, oh my God.

744

:

That's what I was thinking.

745

:

The more you work with the team, the more

you start seeing patterns and anticipate

746

:

but it's fun and it's a great time.

747

:

So we thought in this one group I was in,

we were performing at a theater in Boston

748

:

and we were like, oh, let's play middle

word in front of the audience because

749

:

they'll be so excited to do this with us.

750

:

The difference is now we're in front

of an audience, now we're performing.

751

:

So we're all super hyped.

752

:

Super aware.

753

:

So we get two random words from the

audience and we anticipate it to be

754

:

five or six tries and then be with it.

755

:

We looked at each other and

we got it on the first word.

756

:

Like instantly.

757

:

And it was like, oh, that

shouldn't have worked that way.

758

:

Haha, isn't that funny?

759

:

Let's do another.

760

:

So we asked the audience for

two more words and we looked at

761

:

each other and we did it again.

762

:

And so now it was like looking more

like a magic trick than it is like

763

:

this fun opening game that we played.

764

:

What we found out was like, the

difference between us doing this a

765

:

million times us doing this in Boston

is we were so heightened that we just

766

:

locked straight in on whatever it was.

767

:

And so I think there is something

to that, that when we are in this

768

:

state of heightened awareness, if we

focus on another person, I think we

769

:

do get a little bit more dialed in.

770

:

Um, call it a flow state, call it

whatever, uh, with that person.

771

:

Dan: I actually have so

many questions about that.

772

:

How do you play that with an audience?

773

:

Like not just in front of an audience,

but with an audience and you're getting

774

:

the room to shout back answers at you and

share that communication and that thing.

775

:

There's a huge arc here until

Michael Platt's work and team

776

:

synchronicity and that sort of thing.

777

:

And then there's also, and this

was subtle, but I, I really wanna

778

:

draw it out when you're describing

how you all play the game, right?

779

:

In the first couple times that

you're warming up, you're like.

780

:

We were gonna say, we're gonna say

tree and truck and like, all right.

781

:

My words fire, by the way.

782

:

'cause fire trucks and

trees and cats and things,

783

:

Adam: right?

784

:

Yes.

785

:

Dan: But it's that piece right there.

786

:

It's, Hey, I picked fire.

787

:

Here's why I picked fire, because

I want you to have a glimpse into

788

:

my thought process of the thing.

789

:

And my guess is if you take a group.

790

:

You make them only say the words or you

do it over writing so they can't see

791

:

each other, or you eliminate the ability

to actually do the explanatory like

792

:

recalibration phase at the end of it,

it's gonna take a lot longer to sync up.

793

:

It's that piece of allow me to explain

why I did this thing and what my

794

:

reasoning is and what the logic is

behind it that helps us establish

795

:

our shared mode of communications.

796

:

Even at a basic level.

797

:

If like French is my first language

or whatever, and I hear those words

798

:

and I think about French counterparts

to them, and then I back translate to

799

:

English, that's gonna be a very different

part of the space of all potential

800

:

words that my brain's gonna explore.

801

:

So if you know that about me, then

you can operationalize that and

802

:

we're getting really to, we're doing

that loop of operate, communicate,

803

:

coordinate, recalibrate, and we're

figuring out how to coordinate because

804

:

we're recalibrating our like initial

sensor suites to do this kind of stuff.

805

:

And yeah, I know I'm like stuck in

drone swarm land here, but I've been

806

:

thinking about that a lot lately

and there's just, there's this art

807

:

of like, how do you let a system

self-organize and learn about itself?

808

:

And

809

:

Adam: yeah,

810

:

Dan: like that ability to be

like, why did you pick that word

811

:

is so crucial to that space.

812

:

Adam: And I love this 'cause it's

where the "both and" comes back up.

813

:

In the performance space, if I was running

a group or teaching people in improv, I

814

:

would say, I don't actually want to hear

your description of why you did it at all.

815

:

I want to not activate that

prefrontal cortex in a situation.

816

:

I want it to be like tree

truck, don't think about it.

817

:

3, 2, 1, go.

818

:

And you say, fire.

819

:

And I say, I don't know something else.

820

:

I want us to look at each other in that

moment and it forces us to think, oh, I

821

:

wonder why that person did that thing.

822

:

Yeah.

823

:

And if we don't explain it, it

now it's putting the onus on me.

824

:

And then I think what happens in this

game a lot is, it's funny 'cause you

825

:

said fire and then you explained it.

826

:

And I, in my brain, in this moment,

that's like the right answer, right?

827

:

It's allowing me to get into

your brain of what I want.

828

:

Now, I also, and this is the

"both and" in the performance

829

:

space that let's just react.

830

:

I had a guy named Jay Dun who

joined the show, as in he talked

831

:

about it at the speed of fun.

832

:

He's like, we react at the speed of fun.

833

:

We're not overthinking and everything.

834

:

We're just reacting.

835

:

And as an ensemble really do.

836

:

But I hear your point as well, being

like if we put ourselves in these

837

:

positions where you say something, which

is not the right answer, and then you

838

:

hear my thought process, you're getting

insight into how I read out problems,

839

:

and that is also really essential.

840

:

I also wanna just step back and note.

841

:

These are stories and thoughts

and examples I haven't

842

:

accessed in over 10 years.

843

:

But I think that's, that kind

of goes to my yeah point that I

844

:

make often, which is anything we

learn be applied to anything else.

845

:

You were very generous in saying that

Ven thing, that interdisciplinary

846

:

thing, all these things communicate

with each other and the irony of me

847

:

being like, oh yeah, we had this one

thing, we did this game, middle word in

848

:

Boston, which is like totally relevant.

849

:

I haven't thought about it probably

since the weekend after we presented.

850

:

That's great.

851

:

Wonder how that happens.

852

:

Yeah.

853

:

Dan: Ah, awesome.

854

:

Adam, we're gonna wrap this up here

in a second, and I'm gonna end by

855

:

giving you a chance to challenge

everybody listening to this, right?

856

:

Some sense of what you want

them to try differently when

857

:

they're done with this episode.

858

:

And while you're thinking for a minute,

I will say our normal disclaimer, which

859

:

is that our job here is to take the

best of what everybody else has already

860

:

figured out about applying knowledge under

pressure, and share it with everyone.

861

:

None of what we're doing is medical

advice and for myself or my guests, we

862

:

are only speaking for ourselves and not

for anybody that we work for or with.

863

:

Disclaimer, done.

864

:

Adam, what's your parting challenge

to everybody listening here?

865

:

Adam: Yeah, I think the parting

challenge, is this idea that when

866

:

you're in an emergency or when you're

reacting to a crisis, like everybody

867

:

in there is having kind of their

own experience of what that is.

868

:

And one of the things I would try to

remind myself for when I was first

869

:

learning this work or then teaching others

how to do this work is like for you, it

870

:

might be your third or fourth emergency

of the day, or the umpteenth time you've

871

:

seen something is very likely that

person's first time experiencing that.

872

:

And it's this idea in counseling

of detached engagement.

873

:

That I can let them know that like they

matter to me a lot and what they're

874

:

experiencing is real and valid without

letting myself like fall into that.

875

:

And so I think my challenge is either

to start doing or remind yourself that

876

:

very often people are experiencing

these things for their first time

877

:

and we can just be only a little

bit more patient, a little bit more

878

:

supportive, a little bit more kind.

879

:

In these moments when stakes are high,

it takes two seconds to look someone

880

:

in the eye and two seconds to give

them that look that yeah, we're doomed.

881

:

I'm with you though.

882

:

You know, we, we got it.

883

:

So I guess that would be my challenge.

884

:

Dan: So cool.

885

:

Adam, thank you so much

for joining the podcast.

886

:

Preston: Thank you again for

listening to our Teamcast.

887

:

If you found value in this discussion,

the best way to support our work and

888

:

assure you don't miss future episodes, is

to subscribe and leave us a quick rating

889

:

or review and help us reach more people

who need to hear these conversations.

890

:

For more on Mission Critical Team

Institute, including all of our episodes

891

:

and show notes, visit missioncti.com.

892

:

You can also connect with us on

LinkedIn, and if you're a mission

893

:

critical team looking to learn more

about our programs, reach out directly

894

:

to our Director of Operations, Ms.

895

:

Janese Jackson at janese@missioncti.com.

896

:

That's J-A-N-E-S-E missioncti.com.

897

:

Until next time, thanks.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania