Episode 11

full
Published on:

18th May 2026

S6 Ep10 Character, Creativity, and the Machine

Andy Walshe has spent his career at the frontier of human performance, from Australia's post-Sydney Games high-performance system, through a decade at Red Bull, to his current work with Liminal Collective across elite sport, government programs, and executive development. His assessment of where the field actually stands: about a ten out of a hundred.

Harry and Andy dig into what that means. They cover the challenge of building operator-centered performance programs inside organizations still stuck on the basics; why character and creativity are the two most important elements most programs underweight; and how the rise of AI is forcing a reckoning with what makes humans irreplaceable. Andy's term for it is Imagineering: the capacity to generate the questions worth asking, not just consume the answers the machine provides.

They close on the cognitive warrior as the emerging frontier: why cyber and analyst communities, starting from scratch, may end up leading the DOD in human performance, and what Monday could look like for anyone building high performance programming.

If you find value in this discussion, the best way to support our work is to subscribe and leave a quick rating or review — it helps us reach the teams that need to hear these conversations most.

Transcript
Preston:

Welcome to the Teamcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Preston Cline, Director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

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Here, we discuss all things

mission-critical teams.

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These are teams of four to 12 people

indigenously trained and educated who

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solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets, where the consequence of

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failure is death or catastrophic loss.

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With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

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zones to emergency rooms, dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

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and sustainability of these teams.

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We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

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language and frameworks to transfer

critical, often unspoken, knowledge.

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Whether you're on a mission-critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

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the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

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you to perform when it matters most.

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Thank you for joining us, and

hope you enjoy the Teamcast.

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Harry: Okay, Andy Walshe.

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Thanks for joining us

on the Teamcast mate.

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It's been, a little while in the making.

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I'm super excited to speak to

another Australian, in the US.

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Welcome.

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And, uh, how have you been?

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What have you been up to lately?

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Andy: Yeah, mate, thanks for having me.

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It's great to reconnect here.

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Uh, you know, we are still

pushing down the, the road of

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the human performance space.

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Still learning every day,

which is seems to be the sort

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of trademark of the business.

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Still got a bunch of elite sports stuff,

some really interesting government

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programs we're involved with over here.

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And of course some of the executive

and founder work, you know, both the

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elite sort of senior execs and some

programs around, startups and founders.

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And there's always the technology element

underlying all that, all the different

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tech we get exposed to over here to help

us sort of hack the human a little better.

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Harry: Yeah, good.

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I'm a big admirer of the, the work you

do and Liminal Collective and in my

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thinking, you're right out in front,

in terms of what human performance is.

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And it really brings me to my first

big philosophical question almost,

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you know, what is human performance?

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There's so many varying definitions

depending on who you speak to,

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a psychologist or a strength

and conditioning guy, but

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what, what do you think it is?

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And, and kind of where are

we at with human performance?

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Andy: Yeah, the sort of way we define

it, probably most broadly, is the

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sort of allowing of supporting,

systems and frameworks to let

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people reach their potential.

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Now, in some cases it may be

winning at a high level in sport.

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In other cases it might be business.

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In other cases it might be

just getting through the day.

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So we always keep that broad

definition of human optimization around

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human potential and just allowing

people to be their best selves.

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But you know, like you, if you are talking

to the government, it's human factors.

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If you're talking to, sports,

it's elite performance.

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If you're talking to business,

it's innovation and sort

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of sustained excellence.

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You know, we change the language

to meet the customer in many cases.

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I think the more interesting question

is where are we at with regards to it?

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I still think it's early, early days.

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Having been born and bred into the

space and fortunate enough to sit in

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the Australian system in the early

days when it really did reemerge as a

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success opportunity post Sydney games.

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I think there's still so much to

be learned, and I think we, in many

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cases lose sight of that, especially

people who are new to the industries.

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Whenever I hear, " I guarantee this will

work", or "X plus Y will give you Z" I'm

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like, all, you haven't been around long

enough to know this, but I think, you

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know, that to me, screams opportunity.

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I'd say generally on a scale of a

hundred, we're probably at 10, which

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means look at all that upside, look

at all that opportunity, look at all

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that potential resting in the system.

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Tech is definitely unpacking and revealing

certain new nuances and opportunities in

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the understanding of human performance.

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And I think that's gonna really

accelerate here in the next few years.

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Harry: If you're coming into, using

my community, into a military unit

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or, or, or organization to start a

human performance program, if you

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will, where, where do you start?

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Or what's your thinking around how

you approach setting up to maximize

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the potential of those individuals?

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Andy: Well, we're in the middle of

it right now with a new program over

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here, and I think the first phase, as

arrogant as it sounds, but it's sort

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of the honest example is you just have

to overcome the rational ignorance.

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The human performance world, as you know,

is it's fraught with individuals who've

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been to a gym or been in a school club

or even played professional sport and the

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sense of awareness of what it is relative

to when you dig into it and look at it

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in the most advanced settings, there's

such a big gap there that the first phase

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has been how do we bring an awareness of

what it actually is first and foremost?

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And this is what modern human

performance looks like, which is,

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far more than the weight room and

the running and even the psychology.

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There's so much more to

that integrated approach.

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And at the same time building, like

stepping stones to get some actual,

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programming in place right now.

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So, we blend the two.

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We try and continue to

elicit understanding at the

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senior leadership level.

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At the same time, let's give

them tools that we know will

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have an impact immediately.

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And it's always operator

centric or human centric.

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It's always the individual at the middle.

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And then we really start with just

supporting them foremostly with

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respect to what they want to achieve.

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And then look at the broader effects of,

how it could impact the unit, the whole

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command or maybe even the entire, general

health in the society if you go that far.

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Harry: I guess, one thing I see is

that they struggle with building a

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framework, particularly in the military.

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And I'm sure it's, equal everywhere.

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You know, there has to be a

framework and it has to be defendable

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and then measurable, et cetera,

and humans can't and don't work

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like that, to a large extent.

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But, is there a base framework or a

base understanding or a good program

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that you've seen --or an organization--

that you've seen that have done this

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well or are on the path, ahead of

other organizations, in terms of that

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education piece you're talking about

and then moving to the next phase,

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which is implementation and maintenance.

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Andy: You know, I think there's individual

communities and different elements of

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human performance doing great work.

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And you tend to find these sort of

siloed approaches and great performance

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psychology program in this particular

area, or great tactical physical

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training over in this particular command.

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And you Look at all those sorts of models.

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We come in with that very generic

model, that's just a starting point to

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say, look at all these opportunities,

whether you go the physicality, the

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psychology, the cognitive, the medical

side, like just repair and maintenance.

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You get into the spirituality,

meaning, purpose.

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Creativity is one of the most advanced

programs we offer in that space.

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Character.

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I have yet to see an organization

really do a high level job across

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all the domains that are possible.

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Even when you get us to a specific model

that is pointed towards one of these

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unique, uh, commands we're talking about.

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So I think the best way to approach

it is you show everybody that generic

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model, and then sitting down with the

operators first and foremost, and saying,

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all right, what does success look like?

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Let's really define it clearly.

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What does winning look like for you?

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And then build your model.

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You tell me what's important.

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And you know what, they are all

very, very clear on the skills.

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Harry: Yep.

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Andy: Do this, do that,

do this in a certain time.

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Do this when you're tired and

cold, you know, whatever it is.

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But I think, when you educate them as to

all these other opportunities, especially

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in communities that have been underserved,

so they haven't typically had more

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sophisticated approach, the light bulb

goes off and then they start telling you,

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well I do need a bit of that, and I need

a bit of this, and I'd like a bit of that.

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And once you define that model of

operator excellence or performance

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excellence for that community and then

maybe you're running into the challenge

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that the highest performing community

such as your old guard there, it's easy

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to measure the fitness, in fact, fitness

and, and strength and all that are not

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even on their board once it gets to the

higher level special mission groups.

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It's creativity, problem solving, it's

obviously their values and ethics.

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There's meaning and purpose.

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They're probably there for a reason

beyond themselves for the most part.

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So that's usually boxes

checked in some regard.

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And then you get into the character,

intuition, compassion, empathy,

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and everybody, every one of these

commands, as you know, has that

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all written all over the wall.

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It's in their ethos.

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And so everybody recognizes these

are the most important things,

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but tell me how to measure that.

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I think we select better than we train

it, but even training and bringing

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awareness to it is, it's sort of the

emerging tactics of those groups.

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Harry: Yeah, it's a great point

about intuition, character,

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imagination, creativity.

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Are we in danger, do you think of

overweighting a laser-like focus on

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the performance rather than the person?

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And in doing so, are we, you know,

diminishing their ability to intuit,

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and be imaginative and creative?

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Andy: Absolutely.

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Obviously Defining your performance

metrics helps with that regard.

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But I think, our simple framework is

better at you than better at what you do.

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So let's get back to that human

and those fundamental human

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qualities and focus on that first.

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So inter receptiveness, creativity, all

those skills that are really part of being

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more human and allowing that to be your

sort of central or foundational point.

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Then you can layer on

everything else as you measured.

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And I think what's happening, and we

call it the human machine paradox,

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where the technology's racing, you

know, democratization of knowledge.

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Knowledge will be worthless.

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Tacit knowledge will be worthless.

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Already the machine's got me at all

ends in terms of tacit knowledge.

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And it's probably gonna have

everybody in the next 12 to 18 months.

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So then the paradox is with all this

technological advancements, which to

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your point I think is driving a, has

driven a focus on the measurables.

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We are now looking at the opportunity

to make humans more human.

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Yeah.

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And so how do you train intuition?

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How do you train and for empathy,

anti train compassion and, you

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know, your counterparts over here

in terms of Euro command and all

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the other special mission units.

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That's the conversations we're

having with them right now.

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How do you, how do you actually

coach and elevate creativity?

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You can select, but how

do we even train to it?

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How do we train to intuition?

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How do we bring some of those skills back?

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And even in sport.

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Recently, talking to a pitching coach

and he was talking about how with all

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the technology, the machine can read the

pitch, the baseball pitch, can look at

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the spin, can look at all the elements,

and give you a report straight away as

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soon as the pitch is done and what it did.

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So the kids are looking over at the report

versus really learning real time so that,

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you know, so we're creating a bias towards

this sort of knowledge for knowledge

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sense without, let's read the play,

read the emotion, read the body language

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of the pitcher coming up to the plate.

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And I think we do run the risk

of dehumanizing the individual

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in these very, very quantitative

assessment-based performance programs.

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Harry: Yeah, it worries me.

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From here, from where I sit in, in

Australia and the organizations I work

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with one of the challenges is to kind of

"unoptimize" some thinking to an extent.

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And the mechanistic language

of optimization and programming

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and these types of things are

useful, there's no doubt about it.

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But I do worry that in the race to

optimize, we focus on the parts and forget

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the whole, and, it's a hard line to draw

and it's certainly not a causation, but

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it's one of the things that, contributes

to the underlying problems we see

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in athletes and operators at the end

of their careers, can be very short.

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You know, the average operator life here

is maybe six or seven years on average.

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Athletes are probably less than

that without going to raw numbers.

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But, given they go into the system at 14.

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These days or 15, they can be in a system

for 10 or 15 years and not have life

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changing money or life changing means.

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And I wonder if that's happening

where our, modernization is working

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against being a human in a way.

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It's almost crazy that, you and

I are having this discussion.

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You certainly are a world leader

in thinking, um, I, I think

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a lot about this stuff too.

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And it's crazy to be having a

discussion, how do we make humans

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more humans in the face of modernity?

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But it is a real thing.

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What's your thinking around

training, intuition, creativity,

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imagination, those kind of more

human qualities that potentially

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go to character, as you mentioned?

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Andy: Yeah.

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You know, it's, it's the

hard part, as you said.

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'cause again, it's.

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It's more of an education

and awareness, we're finding.

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Like, you can say, Hey, I'm gonna do

this creative leadership program that,

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that we operate and say, all right,

you're not gonna come out more creative,

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but you are gonna come out with a

greater awareness and understanding

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of that, sort of genre of performance.

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And we think creativity is

the most important element.

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Character and creativity.

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The most important elements of a human

performance program of any merit.

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Harry: Right.

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Andy: So let's just have that

conversation first and foremost.

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Let's talk about that.

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You recognize it's important.

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You select for it, especially

in your old command.

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But then how do we actually continue

to develop it and maintain it?

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And, and I think what we're

seeing in that regard is that you

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start with a really deep dive.

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And we were lucky when I was at Red Bull.

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I had about.

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You know, there were several thousand

artists, musicians, filmmakers,

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photographers in the program, which

don't get the press that the action

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sports, the crazy stuff does.

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But the reality was working with

those communities, you realize

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that there, they do have a

framework about which they operate.

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Musicians do typically have a model,

very much their own, uh, their own

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cognitive structure about how they do it.

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And so we started to ask them all,

and we mapped it out and we had

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the machine read all the research.,

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We laid it all together.

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And we came out with basically a process

that covered the creative elements in a

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way that we could put a structure to it

so that, it could actually be tangible.

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Now, the pure creative for creative

sake, they'll argue that just talking

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about it wrecks the whole process.

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But we said, look, first

step is imagineering.

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You've gotta redevelop or reconnect

to that skill of coming up with

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the ideas and what are you doing

to give yourself new perspectives

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and new models to think about.

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And then the second phase program

is you gotta sell the vision.

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How do you get people on board?

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How do you bring them along with you?

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And that's a storytelling you.

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And if you can't do that,

you're gonna be alone.

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Then you've gotta build a team, which I

think is always overlooked, like a team

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to work in that space of mission critical

teams, it's uncertainty on steroids.

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You can plan and then you move to another

plan based on what's happening around you.

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So you, you're pivoting a lot.

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And so a team that is operating

on its own high autonomy.

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It's a very different team than

a team that's built to execute.

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And you need both.

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And then you've gotta go through

the creative process itself.

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And now that's where the

machine does tick in.

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Like how do you use the machine to

bring new ideas to the forefront

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to stimulate your thought?

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Not to take your thought,

but to stimulate it.

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And then I think the one that's

always overlooked in our model

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is that navigating uncertainty.

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At some point, guaranteed, you're

gonna go off the rails here, it's

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gonna go off a cliff and you're gonna

have to reconstitute the team and

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you pull everything back together.

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Those nights and evenings where

all hell is breaking loose.

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You don't know anything about anything

that that's gonna happen the next day and

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you're sick to your stomach and salaries

are on the line and revenue's on the line.

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And then finally, you've gotta

bring it all together into that

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performance, aggregating all

that into one clear vision.

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And I think that gives you a framework.

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Now you can argue whether it's right

or wrong, but I think at least you can

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say, what am I doing for Imagineering?

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What am I doing to train my, my

community and lead with storytelling?

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How do I learn more about creative

teams, not execution teams?

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How do we all learn how to navigate

it when it goes pear shaped?

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You know?

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So those are the things

you can actually train.

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We've had great success with that model.

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it at least gives people something

to anchor on, if that makes sense.

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Harry: Yeah, definitely, what We see more

operators going off to the world, one up

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or two up rather than in intact teams,

where there are specializations but also

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generalizations and you can build those

teams fit for purpose and they can meet

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uncertainty or they're very happy to go

into as I say, kind of VUCA environments.

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But, now training individuals, we're

kind of going back to the beginning, I

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guess, training, selecting individuals

and training individuals and developing

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what I call a training intelligence,

which is that ability to be able to

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be fully autonomous, to be able to

tie things up with wire and tape and

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just make things up on the run and,

you know, excuse the French, but, get

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shit done, you know, with what they,

with the limited resources they have.

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And, and there's a part

alchemist and part rationalist.

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Mm-hmm.

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And we can still select for that, but

I guess in terms of having a operator

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ready off the end of the conveyor belt

to go off on one of those types of

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missions, day one is the challenge,

and you mentioned something there,

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rational mind versus the intuitive mind.

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And, it reminds me of an old Bob Samples

quote that often is mis-attributed

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to Einstein that the intuitive

mind is a sacred gift, and the

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rational mind is a faithful servant.

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And as a society, we've kind of, we honor

the servant and have forgotten the gift.

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And, we chatted before we came

on about the operator's place

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in human performance programs.

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And this kind of summarizes your

point about convincing the leadership

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of where we're at and educating the

experts, leaders and scientists and et

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cetera, around the operators --pulling

the operator back to the middle of the

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framework and having the experts rather

than the masters of their domains,

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the servants to the operator's needs.

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I would argue in Australia there

are massive silos in military,

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and I see it in sports as well.

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Um, what do you see in the world

around experts and the contest between

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the operators as the main effort

and the experts as the main effort?

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Or is that something you agree with?

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Andy: I learned long ago that the

talent knows what's best and that's your

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first assumption and I recognize that.

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Harry: You caught it before

rational ignorance I think

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Andy: Well, that's actually a

little bit of the, just the little

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general lack of understanding of

you dunno what you don't know.

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The talent knows the edges and they

come into you and they say, we want

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to do this thing that's pushing the

boundaries of my field and there's

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no way, not being a master in that

craft, that I can actually even judge

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their awareness of where the field is.

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You know?

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That they know the edges, and so my

belief in that, they know the edges

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and then they know, within realm or

within reason, what's their capabilities

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are to go beyond those edges.

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Now, my main role there would be to, all

right, let's just cool your jets a little.

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You may be, there may be a

little overconfidence-y here.

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You know, we don't want anyone to get

killed doing this event, but the reality

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is the best ideas came from the talent.

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So I always knew that.

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And so then you use that as your, all

right, if they know what they know.

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And they dunno what they dunno.

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And this is where the

rational ignorance ties in.

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Let's make them aware of all the other

ways that could potentially support them.

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:

Like as you say, they're at the center

and all these other people are in service.

362

:

And if anything you do makes them

or helps 'em, they'll love it.

363

:

So the honest is on us, them make know

what we're doing and have an impact.

364

:

No top performer will go, oh,

I don't want any more of that

365

:

shit that's making me better.

366

:

No one ever says that.

367

:

Yeah.

368

:

So it's on us to then bring to the

table now where they do need expertise

369

:

and this a bit of a sage and the wisdom

comes in is I can come and say, well

370

:

you're trying to do this and you think

this latest technology will get you that

371

:

you're trying to do this particular thing.

372

:

We've seen it done a hundred times

this way by this other community and

373

:

we are just shifting knowledge basis.

374

:

So let's try their approach

first and just fast track that.

375

:

So we bring a lot of the, I think,

shortcuts, we help them coordinate.

376

:

We know what else is out there.

377

:

They're in the silo.

378

:

So our job is just to

move the blinders out.

379

:

And then even when we come up

together and it's a partnership

380

:

more than it is a program, try this.

381

:

Does it help?

382

:

If it does, stays.

383

:

If it doesn't, we get rid of it.

384

:

And then the reality in that

conversation is, and you mentioned

385

:

it with respect to the silos, is

everybody thinks their shit's the best.

386

:

So the doctor thinks the

medical program's the best.

387

:

The nutritionist thinks

food's the solution.

388

:

The fitness coach thinks

the fitness is the solution.

389

:

The coach thinks it's skills, which

you kind of want, but you also want

390

:

them to be mature enough to go, well,

maybe my piece of the puzzle isn't as

391

:

important to this individual at this time.

392

:

It may, may become important down

the track, but that's where you

393

:

have to break those silos down.

394

:

So I think at first they know what's best.

395

:

You show them a broader world.

396

:

With their skills and their

awareness of what's possible.

397

:

And then you may basically make

them a super user of your tools.

398

:

They bring them to life in

ways you'll never imagine.

399

:

And we've sat down with a group or a

team or an individual and said, all

400

:

right, given all the information you

shared and this partnership, we're

401

:

gonna provide this, this, and this,

and I think this will do this for

402

:

you and this will do this for you.

403

:

The number of times they'd come back a

few years later and go, you know what?

404

:

That really helped, but

not in the way you thought.

405

:

Harry: Yeah.

406

:

Andy: I took what you gave us

and I made it my own this way.

407

:

And then we learned back.

408

:

So that's that partnership in action.

409

:

We provide maybe a perspective

or a tool or a technology they've

410

:

not been seen or exposed to.

411

:

They align it into their world

according to their model.

412

:

Harry: Love

413

:

Andy: it.

414

:

And their mental framework.

415

:

And then they, they spit it back to you

and go, you know, when you taught us

416

:

about how to do this in the big waves.

417

:

You thought it would do this

for me, but you know what?

418

:

It actually helped me understand

this, which led to this.

419

:

And then they share that.

420

:

That's aha.

421

:

So I think, you know, that's

the approach we always use.

422

:

It's a partnership, it's an awareness.

423

:

It's, it's trying to provide,

if we can, shortcuts.

424

:

Like if someone says, I want to get fit,

I'm an executive and I wanna get fit,

425

:

we're not gonna go reinvent any fitness.

426

:

Reality is we've got hundreds of

years of cumulative knowledge and

427

:

fitness into the Olympic level.

428

:

Let's just take the basic lessons

from that program and give it to 'em.

429

:

They don't need reinvent that.

430

:

So that's where it becomes really fun.

431

:

Harry: I love that, mate.

432

:

That's that training intelligence, I

guess, where you are giving them the

433

:

wherewithal and handing it over to them.

434

:

You know, it's less about the evidence

and more about what's evident to them.

435

:

That's not to say evidence isn't

important, of course it is.

436

:

I think that that's where I kinda see

that a bit of an arm wrestle going on.

437

:

Andy: Yeah, no, to your point though,

mate, what I'll be very clear is, and I

438

:

think this is where our business suffers

from that consultancy model where I have

439

:

to create a need, so I keep my job and

I think we look at it very differently.

440

:

If we're any good at our job, most

people don't need us after 24,

441

:

36 months, they should graduate.

442

:

Harry: Yeah.

443

:

Andy: You know, we really should be

able to get out of the way and make

444

:

them the expert operator in their world.

445

:

And then we're just feeding their

knowledge base with the latest and

446

:

greatest and maybe, oh, we just saw this.

447

:

Have you thought of this?

448

:

So.

449

:

You know, that doesn't work in a

consulting model where, you know, you

450

:

want 'em to be attached here forever.

451

:

Harry: Particularly in, in my old

community, you know, around the world

452

:

we select for smart, you know, fit

obviously the, the, the, physically,

453

:

durable as well, but very smart operators.

454

:

And then we tend to squander it a little.

455

:

We, we tend to then turn them into a cog

in the machine, which is, you know, that

456

:

kind of utilitarian approach, which,

I struggle with a little bit at times.

457

:

Um, and I also love what you said

about that in that partnership,

458

:

Aristotle and Plato talked about

being midwives to their, their

459

:

knowledge, birthing their knowledge,

creating sparks in them, as you said.

460

:

And I think in that partnership that

you've just described as a small e expert

461

:

or a consultant coming in, I probably

learn more framing it in that way.

462

:

Um, putting them first and handing

over the reins as much as you,

463

:

you can, I probably learn more

individually than I do, bringing in

464

:

my kind of off the shelf knowledge.

465

:

It's almost like you are the

gardener and you're just creating

466

:

hopefully the environment.

467

:

You mentioned character and creativity.

468

:

Over your time, how have you come

to see these as two of the most

469

:

important aspects of or potentially

at the center of human performance?

470

:

Andy: I love this question.

471

:

'cause to me it was an awakening I had.

472

:

And you know, the character thing I

think is the easiest one because I

473

:

think even your community, there's

the threshold fitness, resilience,

474

:

you probably need to know how to

shoot a little, things like that.

475

:

But reality is you can

train a lot of that.

476

:

So you, as, as part of your selection

events, make it increasingly

477

:

more difficult and challenging

just to see how people show up.

478

:

And when they show up as who they

really are, you tend to make a judgment

479

:

call as to whether that's the type of

ethos that suits our community or not.

480

:

And each special mission unit has

its own priorities amongst that.

481

:

But you know, typically, it all boils

down to are you someone we can trust to

482

:

do the right thing when it really counts?

483

:

I'm not trying to disservice any of

the communities, but with that level

484

:

of lethality, you want someone who, you

know, at the end of the day you can trust.

485

:

I think character, and when you look

again at all the locker rooms around the

486

:

world and all the sports facilities, it's,

it's team, it's integrity, it's courage.

487

:

It's all those classic virtues.

488

:

And when we started to look for a

framework, we, we stumbled across the

489

:

work of Peter Rea, who I think has

spoken to your community in the past, Dr.

490

:

Peter Rea.,

491

:

I think his book's title, better

humans, better performance.

492

:

the classic virtues, which arose at

the time of Plato and Confusionism

493

:

centuries and centuries ago, but

trust, compassion, courage, justice,

494

:

wisdom, temperance, and hope.

495

:

And he made a business case in his

book about these virtues, and again,

496

:

you could define character or ethos or

values in whatever language you want,

497

:

but typically what I love about his model

and these classical virtues is that no

498

:

matter where you are in the world, no

one ever says, I don't wanna have more

499

:

courage, or, I don't wanna be more wise,

or I don't wanna have more compassion.

500

:

They align pretty well with the world.

501

:

So let's take that framework.

502

:

One it's always been seen, I

think by the highest performing

503

:

communities as critical.

504

:

I think you see it when you

sit down with the teams.

505

:

If you think back about the teams

that you've loved to been on,

506

:

people were good with each other.

507

:

They were about servicing

each other before themselves.

508

:

He calls courage doing the hard

right versus the easy wrong.

509

:

They wanted to live by the

conviction, not circumstance.

510

:

And as a wisdom, he defined it as strike

to understand versus be understood.

511

:

Temperance.

512

:

Calm is contagious, you know.

513

:

And hope.

514

:

you think about the Stockdale

paradox, realistic optimism.

515

:

Yeah, I could go terribly wrong, but

I'm gonna look out glass half full.

516

:

And I think there's plenty of research

now that shows that if you maintain that

517

:

positive mindset, realistically positive

mindset, you live a longer, happier life.

518

:

So the reality is that character stuff,

that framework that Peter identified

519

:

really does give us a model by which you

can start to look at those individual

520

:

elements and start to develop them.

521

:

And I think paying attention to those

in any training, again, if the machine

522

:

has got all the tacit knowledge or

domain specific knowledge in the

523

:

world, then what are you left with?

524

:

You're left with these human qualities.

525

:

We can layer intuition in there

as well, whatever you want.

526

:

And I think as the machine gets

brighter and brighter, we have

527

:

even more of a responsibility

to double down on those skills.

528

:

So I think that to me was the awakening

in that space, that it was always there.

529

:

I just think we, it's reemerging now.

530

:

Given the machine and the

rise of intelligence at AT, at

531

:

that level, it forces us now.

532

:

That's how we, that's why we train it.

533

:

That's why we're so deep on that side.

534

:

When it comes to creativity,

similar awareness, just

535

:

watching world class performers.

536

:

And it just dawned on me one day, the best

in the world, reimagine what's possible.

537

:

They redefine the genre, they

redefine that area of mastery, and

538

:

they do it in a way that allows them

to have a competitive advantage.

539

:

It's about winning.

540

:

It's about outthinking,

outsmarting a competition.

541

:

I got the action sport community in

spades when I took the job at Red Bull.

542

:

Harry: Yep.

543

:

Andy: They've really honed their

craft and they're hyper creative.

544

:

The tricks were changing every week.

545

:

The actual sports were

progressing very quickly.

546

:

So I was like, what a missed opportunity.

547

:

We, you know, I go to football

practice and everybody's lined

548

:

up and everybody does this drill.

549

:

Everybody does this drill.

550

:

I'm like, where's the play?

551

:

And then when I got to work with

all the artists and musicians,

552

:

I was like, holy hell, there's a

whole untapped knowledge base here.

553

:

Let's just take fitness and

everything else is given and the

554

:

skills, everyone's pretty good.

555

:

Or even in your community,

the standards are set.

556

:

And once you hit those standards,

you, there's a little internal

557

:

competition to get past 'em, but

for the most part, you're too

558

:

damn busy to spend too much time.

559

:

So then it's that problem solving,

it's that it's that showing up

560

:

the right way when it's hard.

561

:

It's all those things

that we've talked about.

562

:

For years when we were doing the

Hacking Creativity Project that we

563

:

did, the research, i'd been using a

clip of, Ray Charles, which is in a few

564

:

of the talks I've given, which was an

interview with him about creativity.

565

:

And he's Talking about, the piano

and his words are something to

566

:

the effect of, everything you can

imagine is inside of this piano.

567

:

It has everything possible in it.

568

:

You know, he is speaking to the idea

that the piano has infinite capabilities.

569

:

And he said, all you have

to do is think of it.

570

:

Yeah.

571

:

So, Imagineering.

572

:

And then when I was doing a, now

I was doing a bunch of work on

573

:

AI and coaching and all the rest

of it, and I was like, oh my God.

574

:

He had the model by which we have

to interact with the machine.

575

:

If the machine has every bit of

knowledge in it, if it's an Einstein

576

:

or Mary Curie or whatever you want

in your fingertips, then your job

577

:

is to imagine the possibilities now.

578

:

And I think to your earlier point,

going back, I think we've defaulted

579

:

to this, oh, do my homework, you know,

answer my emails, book my flights.

580

:

Which is a great resource to have.

581

:

But if you really think about

it, if this is this all knowing

582

:

all smart tool in our pocket.

583

:

What are you doing to show up,

generate the ideas to challenge it.

584

:

So stepping up to the conversation

with the machine is the thesis of our

585

:

human machine teething conversation.

586

:

And fundamental to that is imagineering.

587

:

Can you imagine the question to ask it?

588

:

Not just have it do the hard work.

589

:

So to me, given that the machine is

just getting smarter by the week and

590

:

it still makes mistakes and I'm not

worried about those conversations.

591

:

I think the reality is doing the right

thing with that intelligence is critical.

592

:

And having the ability to imagine

a future or possibilities that

593

:

are not imaginable right now.

594

:

And challenging the machine to solve

that problem is two of the most powerful

595

:

tools we have in our kit, and that's why

we're so doubled down on those two areas.

596

:

Harry: Yeah.

597

:

I love that Imagineering.

598

:

And, again, kind of blows your

mind to think that talking about

599

:

imagination, creativity, intuition,

those types of things, at the

600

:

forefront of human performance

with a capital H in front of it.

601

:

And I want to come back to the

human machine teaming, and that's

602

:

where we'll kind of start to turn.

603

:

But this is part of, I think what, you

know, Percy Cerutty, one of my great,

604

:

mentors from the grave, you know, was

I think shaking his fist at, you know,

605

:

we're in danger of, focusing too much on

the performance and not on the person.

606

:

And Herb Elliot said about him, he

didn't leave you a better athlete.

607

:

He leave you a better human.

608

:

And in fact, the performance, the medals

and the outcomes were a small part

609

:

of what Percy was doing was actually

creating this, you know, it's got the

610

:

old loaf of bread analogy, not focusing

on the slice, but seeing the whole loaf.

611

:

But before you go onto the human machine

interface and teaming, for the people out

612

:

there, for the instructors and the cadre

looking for things that they can do to

613

:

implement more part play or creativity.

614

:

Is there, have there been any activities

or approaches that you've seen out

615

:

in the world that, you know, a team

of operators sitting around can do

616

:

more to practice their creativity,

to open their minds a bit more?

617

:

Or anything come to mind for you?

618

:

Andy: Yeah, I think we've been

so fortunate we've had a deep

619

:

relationship and partnership with

the Cirque du Soleil element.

620

:

I think immersing

yourself in those worlds.

621

:

And it's really hard.

622

:

Like we literally just had a

group, a military group, come out

623

:

and we put them in the middle of

a cirque training evolution, the

624

:

sort of emotional regulation, the

sort of acting class, if you like.

625

:

And it Was trying to fit a square

peg into a round hole at some level.

626

:

But as you saw them as as

627

:

Harry: rolling eyes,

people rolling eyes and

628

:

Andy: Oh my God,

629

:

Harry: jaws dropping, yeah.

630

:

Andy: What are we doing?

631

:

And I purposely bring a couple of high

level creatives into the conversation.

632

:

Two of our best in that

space are choreographers,

633

:

And they work with us a lot.

634

:

And if you sit and have a beer

with 'em, at first you, it's like,

635

:

are they speaking my language?

636

:

The emotion, the connection, the

way they see the world and you

637

:

just have to spend time with this

group and I say, I literally get

638

:

up and say, let it wash over you.

639

:

Don't try and fit it into a system.

640

:

Don't try and figure out how

to take something here and put

641

:

it to work on Monday morning,

'cause it doesn't work that way.

642

:

So that first awareness and awakening

takes a little time but it's super

643

:

fun 'cause they're high performers.

644

:

So you are always getting

something outta that conversation.

645

:

The trick is find someone who's really

world class on that side of the shop.

646

:

Harry: Gotcha.

647

:

Yep.

648

:

Andy: World class talent, a coach.

649

:

Spend time in that community.

650

:

Be curious, inquisitive.

651

:

So we do a ton of that and we spent an

afternoon imagineering the future of

652

:

battle space, in a recording studio.

653

:

And just the recording studio shifted

the mindset of, oh my God, this is

654

:

just a different space, different feel.

655

:

That's a luxury to be

able have that access.

656

:

So that might be hard for

a lot of the instructors.

657

:

I watch shows about musicians, rock bands.

658

:

Every documentary on music I try to watch.

659

:

Watch that, the sort of whole story

every how industrial light and magic did

660

:

all the science fiction for Star Wars

and listen to how they talk, I mean,

661

:

there's so many great examples out there.

662

:

Harry: Yeah.

663

:

Andy: Just immerse yourself in that world

and it'll just start to come to you.

664

:

It again, if you're looking for

one plus one equals two, better

665

:

off sticking the pushups, you know?

666

:

But the reality is, yeah,

667

:

I hate to say it, but you can imagine

if, if I was to take your old cadre,

668

:

your old unit, and I was to get up

and try and teach 'em stuff, they,

669

:

they'd probably do the courtesy of

listening, probably, you know, after

670

:

an hour or two, "all right, we're done.

671

:

We've got what we need."

672

:

I put your cadre right

next to Ray Charles.

673

:

We'll have them talk.

674

:

You can imagine the depth

of that conversation.

675

:

So that's essentially what we do.

676

:

We bring world class talent in.

677

:

We curate, we might give em a

framework that's a little activity.

678

:

So what are you doing for Imagineering?

679

:

Take your team out.

680

:

Visit some of these places.

681

:

Go to non-traditional performance

communities where people are pushing

682

:

the limits in their world and,

and try and just absorb and learn.

683

:

And so that's what we do.

684

:

And then we, we do have models

and that and, and evolutions we

685

:

can run within that framework.

686

:

But those are the two things

that I think are the most thrown.

687

:

Like I told this whole group, go

out to the sphere in Las Vegas.

688

:

Which is the big sphere, the big dome,

the bubble in Las Vegas, which is I

689

:

think 16 K cameras, 300 feet high.

690

:

And we were talking to a group

of high performing analysts,

691

:

in the government setting.

692

:

And I said, how do you get information?

693

:

Is it just off your screen?

694

:

What about being immersed in the data?

695

:

Like the data just envelopes you,

which is what happens at the sphere.

696

:

Yeah.

697

:

I said, go to the sphere and sit

there and just listen to the music.

698

:

Watch a band.

699

:

And a couple of them did it.

700

:

They're like, oh my God.

701

:

Never felt that experience.

702

:

So again, all we're doing is back

to that blinder conversation.

703

:

We're giving them that perspective.

704

:

So first and foremost, talk about it, site

visits, guest lectures, things like that.

705

:

But that's typically I think, the

easy and the lowest hanging fruit.

706

:

Get out there and visit and spend time.

707

:

An Australian symphony.

708

:

The school in Sydney, the acting

school, I forget its name, right

709

:

near University of New South Wales.

710

:

Anyway, you've got these centers

of excellence in the arts and

711

:

crafts, and just get in, get

in there, talk to the talent.

712

:

Harry: I read a lot, recently on

the agoges, the Greek agoges, the

713

:

schoolhouses where they train for war.

714

:

I'm talking 3000 odd years ago, or

two and a half thousand years ago.

715

:

The more you read, the more

you realize that, the men and

716

:

women play things like dance.

717

:

Uh, they were learning the code and

societal values, how to be a good citizen.

718

:

but poetry and dance and, and

theater and dialogue and et cetera

719

:

were front and center, alongside

mathematics and war fighting.

720

:

Um, and as you alluded to, you know,

the eyes start rolling pretty quickly if

721

:

you go in front of a bunch of operators.

722

:

But having said that, I think

there's a more openness to it.

723

:

And I love that point about

going to recording studio mate.

724

:

I play in a band myself and the language

is completely different and it's more

725

:

about the ineffable qualities of teaming.

726

:

So how do a bass player and a guitarist

and a drummer talk to each other through

727

:

their instruments and, you know, it's,

it doesn't have words and the more

728

:

you try to put explicit terms onto

it, the more it kind of diminishes it

729

:

and impoverishes the whole process.

730

:

I think that's, you know,

kind of full circle back to

731

:

that intuitive imagineering.

732

:

I love that term.

733

:

Andy: Yeah, I'll give you an example

of a workshop, uh, take, um, "Get

734

:

Back" that Beatles documentary.

735

:

Harry: Yep.

736

:

Andy: We cut up segments of that and

we put in front of a group of, high

737

:

level leaders and say, okay, how

would you lead this group right now?

738

:

We watch the music, we watch the creation.

739

:

It was that Abbey Road recording,

two months to come up with a record.

740

:

So people say there's

this creative process.

741

:

No, no, there's deadlines in creativity,

there's schedules, there's budgets,

742

:

constraints, there's all these things.

743

:

And I Literally posed the question

at the end of the clip, said,

744

:

how would you lead the Beatles?

745

:

And there's no right or wrong, it's

just, oh my God, what would I do?

746

:

Uh, throw 'em in the room and

toss a case of beer at 'em.

747

:

And that's one answer.

748

:

No, I might try to give them other

experiences or other perspectives, which

749

:

they're already in embarking on anyway,

just, the conversation is enough to bring

750

:

awareness and the right leaders get it.

751

:

It's a much more, to your point,

Socratic conversation around a

752

:

concept or a principle with, you

know, no one's trying to be right.

753

:

Everybody's trying to extract or

add value to the conversation.

754

:

Experiment.

755

:

Yep.

756

:

That's

757

:

Harry: Not, not afraid to fail.

758

:

And, you know, there's probably

less on the line in terms of

759

:

failing writing a song than there

is, you know, conducting a mission.

760

:

But it Doesn't diminish one iota,

the underlying principles of what

761

:

you wanna achieve and the creativity.

762

:

You know, what's making it hard,

Andy, is the human machine interface.

763

:

And, as we head towards , the end of the

Teamcast, I'm fascinated with some of the

764

:

work you're doing currently around how do

we set, for example, cyber operators or,

765

:

you know, the new bastion of special ops.

766

:

There's a lot of special missions

guys out there who bristle at this,

767

:

but the next generation of special

mission operator is not gonna look

768

:

like the classic baseball cap wearing

gun toting, you know, knuckle dragger.

769

:

It's gonna look a lot different.

770

:

Mm-hmm.

771

:

And you're at the forefront.

772

:

Where are we at with

human machine interface?

773

:

You know, what are you seeing and, what

have you been up to in this domain?

774

:

Andy: Yeah.

775

:

I Think it comes back to that balance

we spoke about at the beginning.

776

:

What is the machine elegantly

and more effectively capable

777

:

of doing, and where do you sit?

778

:

So I think it's always about sitting

on that seesaw and you maintaining

779

:

the deep human development and the

human characteristics and ethics and

780

:

bringing that to the conversation.

781

:

So I don't think that

relationship shifts at all.

782

:

I do think, what we're seeing

in the space, in sort of like

783

:

the cognitive warrior program

is there is gonna be a shift.

784

:

I mean, why would you send a group of

men women into a room that's potentially

785

:

dangerous versus a dozen robots?

786

:

It really doesn't make any sense.

787

:

Let's send that in first and

just see if anything gets boom.

788

:

Harry: Mm.

789

:

Andy: And I think you see it in Ukraine

right now 'cause that's probably the

790

:

most creative war fighting environment

in the planet right now, you're just

791

:

seeing that the ability of the machine

that never sleeps to have all better

792

:

vision, better thermal vision, all

night vision like the machine and its

793

:

associated platforms horizontally and

vertically, kind of, you poke your head

794

:

up over there, you tend to light up

some signature that, that, that says,

795

:

yeah, look at me, this is where I am.

796

:

And then they can send in things

as, you know, even in that simple

797

:

environment, deadly consequence.

798

:

Now imagine that with a foe like

a China or someone who's really

799

:

advancing the technology, there's

really a shifting model of operation.

800

:

Not to say that they'll all go away,

but I definitely think you've gotta

801

:

play the game very differently.

802

:

So how do you develop the

skills and requirements?

803

:

And I think there'll still be that fitness

and they'll still need to be physically

804

:

resilient and all the rest of it.

805

:

But there's also gonna probably be a

very high cognitive demand, higher than

806

:

ever, with all the different platforms

and different screens and different

807

:

systems they have to interface with.

808

:

And I think that's where we are

really underserving the community.

809

:

'cause there's no centers for cognitive

excellence anywhere in the world.

810

:

We're trying to stand one up over

here, but there's no place to go.

811

:

There's lots of Brain Health lots of

longevity and make your brain live

812

:

forever places popping up, but there's

not one central repository of all the

813

:

best information on what it takes to

really sharpen and optimize the mind.

814

:

And it, why would it's the damn com

most complicated element of the most

815

:

complicated system in the world.

816

:

So I think, how do we think about

optimizing that side of the equation?

817

:

It's not a battle of muscle.

818

:

It's a matter of battle of

brains, but the reality is it's

819

:

now less room for the muscle.

820

:

'cause maybe a platform

takes that off you.

821

:

I saw recently, as, you know, the

robotics, the evolution in robotics and

822

:

the platforms that are possible now.

823

:

Which to me again, speaks to this idea

of how do we bring that human element

824

:

to life and that operator, how do we

sharpen that cognitive capability?

825

:

So that to me is the most exciting

part about the human performance

826

:

space right now, is finally we're

en entering a space where we can't

827

:

default to much physicality at all.

828

:

Especially if you're an analyst or a

drone operator or something like that.

829

:

You have gotta be

cognitively on your game.

830

:

And as you know, it's, it's not an

a, a, a job without consequence.

831

:

It's just, and you may see it in 3D, 4K

resolution, so you are, you're feeling the

832

:

out outcome as, as much as potentially,

well to a level that actually can have

833

:

an impact by positive and negative.

834

:

And how do you develop

the talent to do that job?

835

:

Harry: I like the idea that you've

posit there, that, you know, in

836

:

the past, the physicality, the body

has been the primary focus as as,

837

:

which is an obvious thing to say.

838

:

And that's, that's probably not going

away, but there's this, there's this new

839

:

priority that the body is, we want it at.

840

:

It's in its best functioning

state to support the brain, that

841

:

that's really the underline.

842

:

So it becomes this secondary thing.

843

:

So still super fit, still able to

go, you know, carry large things

844

:

and lift big things and, yeah.

845

:

But it's not in support of the mission

as much as it is in support of the

846

:

brain, which is the main, focus.

847

:

And again, you know, I've always

thought that, being frustrated, I

848

:

guess it's one of the reasons I was,

I was one of those disruptive kind

849

:

of figures in the unit because I, I

thought we squandered the operators.

850

:

What we selected them for that,

that cognitive abilities, the,

851

:

the general aptitude there.

852

:

And, we just took them, selected

them for that, and then seemed

853

:

to just put them off into a team.

854

:

And as I said, kind of become

this cog in a big machine.

855

:

We talking about the cyber

operator or you mentioned them

856

:

as a cognitive, warrior concept.

857

:

I know, there's some frustrations

with trying to educate people the need

858

:

for this and where does this take us

in the future of human performance?

859

:

Andy, what do you see out in front

of us we've talked a bit about it,

860

:

but, what's Andy Walshe looking at

on the horizon and his horizon as

861

:

opposed to all us back behind you?

862

:

Andy: Oh, no, I wouldn't say that.

863

:

The, um, so there's a real challenge.

864

:

The real challenge goes back

to our earlier conversation.

865

:

Let's think of the analyst, the

cognitive warriors, let's just say

866

:

someone who's dominantly making

decisions in some sort of environment

867

:

where there's you systems of feedback,

intelligence, screens, whatever you want.

868

:

You are taking an individual that

even in the mainstream, so the

869

:

private sector, there's no real high

performance programs for programmers.

870

:

We've done a few over the years or

engineers, but you really, it's a leap of

871

:

faith to say, what the hell is this group?

872

:

Why would they have a equivalent of an

Olympic level high performance program?

873

:

So if you think there's rational

ignorance in an organization,

874

:

try to take a group that's never

even been exposed to some form of

875

:

performance and try to elevate them up.

876

:

So there's a lot of education there.

877

:

Harry: Can we learn from

gaming in that context?

878

:

Andy: yeah.

879

:

And That's, that's one of the areas

we spent a ton of time in in our

880

:

early lessons were with elite eSports

teams and, and that's one avenue.

881

:

So cognitive load and how to manage

cognitive load and things like that.

882

:

But the reality is.

883

:

If you just say, all right, that's

the battle I've signed up for.

884

:

I'm in it.

885

:

And I've had to do it a

few times in my career.

886

:

So it's sort of, , I'm kind of used to it.

887

:

I dunno if I've got any better at it, but

then you flip it and you go, oh my God.

888

:

And I, this is how we positioned

it here for the, the US government.

889

:

I said, look, I asked to run up

to Virginia Beach or down to Bragg

890

:

or any, you know, San Antonio and

all the different communities.

891

:

There's a whole legacy of how they've been

doing business and how they've trained and

892

:

how they've looked at human performance.

893

:

And they were early adopters and

they've done a good job with it.

894

:

But you've Got about a thousand

experts you've gotta overcome.

895

:

And I think, as I look at it, and I love

what I call emerging communities in human

896

:

performance, so underserved communities

in human performance, because I said

897

:

to them, look, we're just gonna stand

on the shoulders of everybody else.

898

:

So you've got Air Force Flight

pilot training sitting there.

899

:

You've got OC special operations on top

of that, you've got the the Navy group.

900

:

You've got the Army.

901

:

So here comes cyber.

902

:

We're sitting at the top.

903

:

We're not gonna reinvent any of that.

904

:

We'll pick up something heavy,

get strong, run, get fit.

905

:

Now we have the opportunity

to accelerate beyond.

906

:

So I said, I think this community,

if we get it right, will

907

:

emerge as the leaders in human

performance across the entire DOD.

908

:

And you can imagine how that sat.

909

:

I was like, and here's

the other reason why,

910

:

I'd say your highest, sort of

branded special units are gonna

911

:

look to this community to how to

optimize the cognitive capacities.

912

:

'Cause you are gonna spend more money and

time and energy just focusing on that.

913

:

Like it's exactly the same as

if you were a marathon runner.

914

:

We'd have all those energy and resources

focused on your fitness and your

915

:

training and your technical skills.

916

:

So now I think the opportunity with

the cognitive warriors to develop a

917

:

whole new command based performance

ecosystem that is focused purely on

918

:

the brain and mind, to double down

research and efforts in that space.

919

:

And, you know, imagine if I could in,

not to distant future, enhance intuition

920

:

immeasurably, enhance creativity, enhance

courage, enhance cognitive function.

921

:

Every program in the

world's gonna want that.

922

:

Yeah.

923

:

So I think we actually, I see

that future as more, I'm more of

924

:

a glass half full kind of person.

925

:

So to that extent, I think that

future space is going to be, the

926

:

future of human optimization is

there'll be enough resources available

927

:

with enough brilliant people.

928

:

And, you know, and with the

emergence of AI and that, and

929

:

then the potential overlay of the

quantum platforms on top of that.

930

:

The human brain being the most complex

entity in the universe and operating at

931

:

some finite, at some subatomic level,

in a quantum model is what they assume.

932

:

The technology's there, the desires

there, and the money's there.

933

:

I think we can start to crack the

code of the mind, if you like.

934

:

And I, so I think human optimization in

the, in the cognitive warrior space is

935

:

gonna be at the forefront of everything.

936

:

And of course, then think

about the applications.

937

:

We're already doing programs

with high performing surgeons.

938

:

There's already people in the sort

of high stakes decision making, stock

939

:

traders, air traffic controllers, you

know, every, every high performer,

940

:

even in the older sense making.

941

:

Decisions in very tough and

challenging environments.

942

:

Imagine if you could make that decision

with a little creative flare, with

943

:

a little compassion, a little more.

944

:

You really are starting to win that human

side of that human machine conversation.

945

:

So that's the positive side of it.

946

:

Well, and then I think to the

point, whatever I mention, look,

947

:

the lessons we learned from this

community will be in the hands of

948

:

every school kid in front of a screen.

949

:

Think about that opportunity.

950

:

I hate to say it, but you will spend

money on these high performing operational

951

:

groups who are, you know, essentially

knowledge workers making big decisions

952

:

or consequence at critical time periods

in, in our, in our sort of evolution.

953

:

So yeah, that's, that's the positive side.

954

:

One of them, I guess.

955

:

Harry: I love it, mate.

956

:

That's, that's a good to hear

the mind, making its, delayed

957

:

arrival into psychology.

958

:

I, I'm a bit cynical about it because

I feel like sometimes you, I went

959

:

through my psychology degree, albeit

late, but not, not that long ago.

960

:

And I was always frustrated.

961

:

We never, never even touched the mind,

never touched consciousness, subconscious.

962

:

We never really got, it was as

if Freud had been rubbed out.

963

:

And I'm not saying that he's a be all,

end all, but, with the operators, we talk

964

:

about theory of mind, just one example.

965

:

And I can't believe that that's

not ubiquitously talked about or,

966

:

or a lens or, or in the language.

967

:

That concept of thinking about

how other people are thinking.

968

:

And, and when you think about

that, you could get yourself

969

:

into a circular, vortex there.

970

:

But, is, is critical information and,

it seems kind of remiss that we've never

971

:

really broached that with operators.

972

:

So I love to hear that.

973

:

And I think that's with me when you

are speaking there about that human

974

:

tech, , interface and, and teaming,

it really does bring those fundamental

975

:

parts of experience to the fore for me.

976

:

Good luck with the rational ignorance.

977

:

What do they say?

978

:

Science changes one death at a time

uh, and in the military and the

979

:

government, it changes either one

posting or one government at a time.

980

:

So, keep up the good fight, mate.

981

:

Andy: Well, thank You mate.

982

:

Well, you know, Jurgen Heitmann,

he is part of your community on

983

:

the, on the Navy side over here.

984

:

Harry: Great man.

985

:

Yeah.

986

:

Andy: And see that rational,

he uses that all the time.

987

:

And now I know working with the

government, he, he just, he's, you gotta

988

:

overcome that rational ignorance, he said.

989

:

But I think it's an exciting time,

as you said, and I think to the.

990

:

So the challenge, the human brain

being so complex, the tools are

991

:

maybe emerging to start to really

add some greater understanding.

992

:

And I think as you said, all these

silos are different disciplines of

993

:

cognitive therapy, you know, psychology,

I think they're, they've just had

994

:

to figure out ways of working in

the absence of a real fundamental we

995

:

and knowledge of how it all works.

996

:

And I think the mind is the last, I think

we're starting to get into a space where

997

:

they're starting to think about how that

can actually be tracked and understood.

998

:

That's still a ways off.

999

:

I think if we're a 10 out of a hundred

on human performance, we're probably

:

00:49:31,034 --> 00:49:32,444

a one out of a hundred on the brain.

:

00:49:32,494 --> 00:49:32,854

Harry: No.

:

00:49:32,884 --> 00:49:36,424

Well, I, I guess my starting point,

'cause, uh, as a, as I've just finished,

:

00:49:36,424 --> 00:49:39,094

I feel like I've only just finished

my apprenticeship as a psychologist.

:

00:49:39,394 --> 00:49:42,244

My starting point is not so much

at the evidence, although that's

:

00:49:42,244 --> 00:49:44,734

important, but what's evident

to the person in front of me.

:

00:49:44,734 --> 00:49:47,064

And I think that's very interesting to me.

:

00:49:47,424 --> 00:49:50,414

But I can't let you go

without, our usual questions.

:

00:49:50,444 --> 00:49:51,224

What are you reading?

:

00:49:51,224 --> 00:49:54,734

And, the, what can you do on Monday

question, I'm gonna posit as what

:

00:49:55,053 --> 00:49:59,262

can a human performance manager

or director or someone doing some

:

00:49:59,262 --> 00:50:00,822

program, what could they do on Monday?

:

00:50:00,872 --> 00:50:02,907

Andy: Well, right now I'd

say that I'm watching.

:

00:50:02,907 --> 00:50:06,357

I'm trying to read, but I'm, I'm with

my kids in the whole thing, but I'm,

:

00:50:06,357 --> 00:50:10,737

I'm really tuning into these centers

of excellence in human creativity.

:

00:50:10,737 --> 00:50:13,317

So I said Light & Magic

is a great documentary.

:

00:50:13,447 --> 00:50:16,827

Muscle Shoals, if you wanna get into

the music, Get Back, The Beatles.

:

00:50:17,347 --> 00:50:21,047

I'm really fascinated by, and

it's entertaining as well.

:

00:50:21,627 --> 00:50:27,657

Watching these studios have produced

multiple gold records, learning

:

00:50:27,662 --> 00:50:28,807

about the types of, artisanship.

:

00:50:29,687 --> 00:50:34,667

There's a whole series of little, YouTube

accounts of these craft Chinese craftsmen

:

00:50:34,667 --> 00:50:36,737

making traditional instruments or pots.

:

00:50:37,187 --> 00:50:40,067

And it's like a three month process

just to get the raw materials out

:

00:50:40,067 --> 00:50:43,097

of the ground and, and all out of

the trees and the sap and the bark.

:

00:50:43,097 --> 00:50:45,857

I'm fascinated with

artistry and craftsmanship.

:

00:50:46,832 --> 00:50:49,832

And just the vision of how that

would actually even came about.

:

00:50:49,832 --> 00:50:51,332

How did you actually even imagine this?

:

00:50:51,332 --> 00:50:52,442

So back to that Imagineering.

:

00:50:52,442 --> 00:50:55,449

So anything I can watch to

trigger an insight into the

:

00:50:55,449 --> 00:50:57,489

Imagineering side, the music I love.

:

00:50:57,989 --> 00:51:01,572

To you Monday morning sort of

piece, I would think about how do

:

00:51:01,572 --> 00:51:06,417

I bring creativity and character

back into my programs if it's not

:

00:51:06,417 --> 00:51:08,006

there or how do I actually play.

:

00:51:08,332 --> 00:51:11,002

let the, let the athletes

play, let the talent play.

:

00:51:11,032 --> 00:51:14,692

Let them encourage 'em to

use that part of the mind.

:

00:51:14,692 --> 00:51:19,942

So I, for the high performance directors,

think of the world more now, if we're

:

00:51:19,942 --> 00:51:24,262

gonna have more answers than we've ever

had potentially, but what are we gonna do?

:

00:51:24,262 --> 00:51:27,262

How are we gonna come up with

the questions to challenge,

:

00:51:28,042 --> 00:51:28,252

Harry: Love it.

:

00:51:28,252 --> 00:51:29,812

Andy: And get the most

outta those answers.

:

00:51:29,812 --> 00:51:31,372

So that's what I challenge

people to think about.

:

00:51:31,372 --> 00:51:33,532

How to build their own imagination

right now because that's a muscle,

:

00:51:33,532 --> 00:51:35,152

like again, I think you build it back.

:

00:51:35,152 --> 00:51:35,992

I think we've lost it.

:

00:51:35,992 --> 00:51:37,642

'cause the machine does everything for us.

:

00:51:38,422 --> 00:51:40,042

And you gotta actively work on that.

:

00:51:40,042 --> 00:51:41,842

So that's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

:

00:51:42,907 --> 00:51:46,177

Harry: Mate, it's worth a hell of a

lot, Andy, and so is your time mate.

:

00:51:46,177 --> 00:51:47,797

I've taken a big chunk of it today.

:

00:51:48,347 --> 00:51:51,467

Andy Walshee, thanks for coming on

the Teamcast mate, never fail to

:

00:51:51,467 --> 00:51:53,447

disappoint and really appreciate it.

:

00:51:53,447 --> 00:51:54,287

Andy: Well, thank you mate.

:

00:51:54,287 --> 00:51:55,757

We really appreciate the opportunity

:

00:51:55,807 --> 00:51:56,377

Harry: thank you.

:

00:51:58,344 --> 00:52:00,084

Speaker 6: Thank you again

for listening to our Teamcast.

:

00:52:00,654 --> 00:52:03,344

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Janese Jackson, at janese@missioncti.com.

:

00:52:30,064 --> 00:52:30,944

That's J-A-N-E-S-E@missioncti.com.

:

00:52:31,324 --> 00:52:32,874

Until next time, thanks.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania