Episode 8

full
Published on:

6th Apr 2026

S6 Ep7 Coach, Don't Profess: Theory-to-Practice Transfer in Mental Performance

Ceci Craft has worked inside two of the most demanding performance cultures in the world — Army Special Operations and Major League Baseball. She's currently the Philadelphia Phillies' Director of Mental Performance, Life Skills, and Education, leading a staff of seven coaches across their MLB affiliates and the organization's academy in the Dominican Republic.

When she made the move from working with Operators to working in baseball, she thought she had her bearings -- "No one's being shot at, and no one's died, so I'm fine." -- It took her a while to recalibrate her perspective from the special ops world and to recognize that losses in the athletic world are different kinds of losses, but still real ones.

Preston and Ceci dig into the gap between how mental performance practitioners are trained and what the job actually requires — the ethical conundrums no ethics course prepares you for, the difference between a clinical model built on client readiness and a performance context that operates on its own timeline, and why "coach, don't profess" is harder to practice than it sounds.

They use imagery as a case study — exploring habituation, audience fit, and how to teach live skills more effectively. They examine what Ceci calls "healthy versus junk food confidence": the difference between confidence that holds up versus confidence that collapses under real pressure. And they close with one of the more honest conversations about identity and transition: what it actually costs to walk out of a high-performance tribe, and what helps.

If this conversation is useful, the best way to support our work is to subscribe and leave a rating or review. It helps us reach the people who need these discussions.

Transcript
Preston:

Hi everybody.

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Welcome back to the Teamcast.

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This is Dr.

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Preston Cline.

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Today I am joined by an old

friend of mine named Ceci Kraft.

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She's currently the Philadelphia

Phillies Director of Mental

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Performance Life Skills and Education.

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We were trying to figure out

where we first met, but I think.

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It was either back when she was running

mental performance in Army Special

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Operations or when she was with the

Cleveland Guardians, with Jay Hennessy,

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Dan Coyle, Josh Gibson and the rest

of that crowd, brilliant folks.

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And, we have, stayed in touch ever since.

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She's one of the people that I will go to

from time to time in human performance as

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it is still at the edge, is still a bit

of a wild west, and so we still need some

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folks that can read truth into the mess.

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So today we're gonna talk about

all things human performance.

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Anybody who's met me knows

that I am clearly not an

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expert in human performance.

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I'm a really good, expert in rehab.

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I'll, I'll give you that.

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A lot of information on that.

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All the broken things are fixing.

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But, that's about it.

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And so with that, I just wanna

say, Ceci, thanks for coming

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and welcome to the Teamcast

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Ceci: Thank you so much.

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It's such a pleasure

to be on the Teamcast.

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Preston: We are gonna be talking about,

a bunch of different things, but to

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start off , can we talk a little bit

about what is your job right now?

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Like what are you doing for

the Philadelphia Phillies?

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Ceci: Yeah, I have an

amazing position right now.

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It's very exciting and I can't believe

I actually have the job I have.

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So I am our director

of mental performance.

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I actually have seven mental performance

coaches that work for me and we have

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a mental performance coach at our

major league team in every minor

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league affiliate, in the us And, and

that's pretty unique within baseball.

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A lot of of the teams are growing

their mental performance departments.

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But I get to direct and mentor my staff

and make sure that we are meeting the

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vision and the needs of our head of

player development, our general manager

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and our president for the Philadelphia

Phillies, and getting our players ready

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to perform on a Philadelphia stage,

which if anyone knows Philadelphia

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is quite a stage to perform on.

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So that's the first half of my title.

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I'm also the Director for Life

Skills and Education Department.

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And that's been really amazing

and a huge learning curve for me.

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Within our life skills and education

department, I have a staff in the

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US and a staff in the Dominican

Republic at our academy there.

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And we help our players that have

not finished high school; some start

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high school and finish high school.

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Some finish up what's left.

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We do English language

learning, so English as a second

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language or third or fourth.

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And then we also teach life skills

as most of our players are hopefully

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transitioning into the US and will

experience a completely different

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language, cultures and customs, and

so I direct that department as well.

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Preston: Nice.

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You know, in our work, and you do as

well, we often get, this conversation

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about, "Hey Preston, you know, when you

talk to sports folks, you understand

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that sports isn't special operations."

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And I go, yeah, I'm, I'm

super clear on that actually.

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But it's a Venn diagram.

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So there are things that

are absolutely not the same.

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And then there are some

great similarities.

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Can you talk a little bit

about where they're the same

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and where they're different?

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Ceci: Yeah.

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A couple years outta grad school, I

came into working for the military,

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and I think one of the things

that I did realize being educated

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within, applied sports psychology,

psychology and physiology for high

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performance was that humans are humans.

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And so I think that is one of the

things that stays the same is, I often

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times tell people my hobby is humans.

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I really love humans.

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I'm very curious about humans.

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And they are high

performance environments.

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They attract and demand a really niche

population, so that's a similarity.

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I think as you've talked about on your

Teamcast multiple times, when we talk

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mission critical teams or we talk about

catastrophic failure, it, it is different.

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And I think one of the mistakes I actually

made when I first came into baseball,

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I was working for Terry Francona with

Cleveland and we were having a tough

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April and May, and it had been a couple

years where the club had started out slow.

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And Tito very kindly came to

check on me and said, you know, I

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know you're new into the team, I

just wanna know how you're doing.

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And my response was, well, no one's being

shot at and no one's died, so I'm fine.

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And this was after seven years

working for the military where I had

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friends that came home with bullet

holes and I had friends that I had

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lost, and people that I had trained.

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And so what happened when things

went wrong when I worked for

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the military was catastrophic.

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And I think in some ways I

underappreciated perhaps in baseball.

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It felt very much like

a, a game, and it is.

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But I, I didn't probably fully

appreciate like livelihoods

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being lost or dreams being lost.

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And that's significantly

different than losing a life.

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but it took me a while to

recalibrate to that for our

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players, it was still life changing.

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They were still alive, thank God.

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And so yes, they're

significantly different.

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The loss Is completely different.

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What it feels to problem

solve is completely different.

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But, but we still are working with

humans and trying to get them to

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function at the highest possible

levels and leverage everything that

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they have within these environments.

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I'd also say, and you and I talked this

a little bit before, within the game of

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baseball, we know what's gonna happen

within a certain amount of reason, right?

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We know we're gonna generally

play around nine innings.

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We know that rain delays can occur.

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We know we can end up in extra

innings, but like the, the rules of

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baseball are the rules of baseball.

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I think one of the things that,

that we know with working with

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military populations is, we are

constantly relearning rules and what

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can happen and how it's gonna go.

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And so what you're preparing someone for

within baseball is a fairly known event.

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And so from a mental performance side,

you can use certain tools or techniques,

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that are built for known events.

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Within the military, you have to

prepare people to exercise a large

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amount of judgment, especially

within a special ops population.

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Preston: Yeah, I think, you know,

one of the things we should return

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to before we're done today is, when

we talk about the hero's journey and

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identity and purpose and the loss of

that, or even the transition of that

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going from say, Dominican Republic to

suddenly you're in the majors, right?

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That identity shift is significant,

and then suddenly one day you're

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no longer in the game and that

transition is significant.

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That is also true for special operations.

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Yeah.

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What I wanna do right now is as

we talk about the differences in

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sports and special operations.

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We should also talk about the

differences in the academy, where you

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learn, and the practice, what you do.

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And so what have you seen as the

challenges and what have you seen

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as some successful strategies

for making that transition?

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Ceci: I think we have a massive

challenge taking people that are trained

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within my field and bringing them

into, active, alive, applied settings.

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And I think some of that is that

theory to practice is a gigantic leap.

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When you're trained by a professor right,

that that works primarily in academia,

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they're training you on the theories that

yes, you will use throughout your career.

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What they don't spend all their

time in is applied settings.

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Right now in baseball.

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Dieticians are joining the high

performance teams and they're going

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through a lot of trials and tribulations.

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They're generally trained clinically,

and candidly, even mental performance

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coaches with the history of the field

of sports psychology are oftentimes

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trained with a clinical background.

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Well, clinical settings are very

different than both a military field

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setting or an on-field baseball setting.

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People don't walk into your office through

an external door so no one else sees it.

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Their successes and failures are

very visible in these spaces, both in

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military spaces and in sports spaces.

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And so you immediately find yourself in,

anything from like ethical conundrums

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that were not discussed in your ethics

courses, and all the way through just

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what does applied practice look like.

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And so I would, I would honestly tell

you, I think part of the reason I have a

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job as a director of mental performance

is because one of the things I've

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spent a lot of time on is how do you

onboard people successfully into these

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applied spaces and what does it take?

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And right now for our field of mental

performance, it takes a lot of mentorship

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and a lot of saying, I understand

that this is the way you learned that.

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This is not gonna work here.

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And a huge amount of that is the

ability to hold the task in hand.

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You know, I'm, I, I need to

create rapport with the manager,

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the head coach of this team.

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I need to meet with them and discuss

what I want to do from a group

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level training and some get to know

his thoughts or her thoughts on an

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individual player, but I also have to pay

attention to the human in front of me.

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And I have to pay attention to the fact

we just played 10 innings of baseball

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and it's hot outside and he's exhausted.

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And while we agreed to meet today, I

need to be able to see him or her and

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recognize today is not the day to talk.

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And it's so interesting to me in a

field of mental performance where

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what we do is specialize in humans.

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It's hard for us to hold the

task in our head and the human in

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our head and act appropriately.

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We lose that too often.

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You know, we're not in these beautiful,

controlled clinical settings.

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I'm sure someone from clinical is

gonna really resent me saying beautiful

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controlled, 'cause I recognize clinical

work has its own complications, but we're

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in this very applied, very fluid state.

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There's politics and power

dynamics and lots of human things.

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And so I think there's a huge

job of taking what we learned and

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transferring it into an actual applied

space and figuring out what theories

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hold, what theories don't hold.

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I mean, kind of all those pieces

and as you, it's, it's hard.

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Preston: As you bring in new folks, are

there any particular strategies that

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you found to be successful to accelerate

their ability to do applied work?

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Ceci: We have gotten better.

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I'll speak first from

the interview process.

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I think we've gotten more and more to

a place where everything we do within

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our hiring process tries to get as

close to mimicking the job and what it

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legitimately will be like, as possible.

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And I think we've realized probably

that well, competence yes, is essential,

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there's probably a baseline competence

within our field that's, that's essential.

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But then the human characteristics

of curiosity and perseverance and

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drive, ability to take feedback...

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everybody in the field of mental

performance knows that you

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should have a growth mindset.

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But practicing one and getting feedback,

rough feedback is a whole different thing.

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So some of it's been in our interview

process, getting better at targeting,

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the type of interactions, the type of

skills, the type of human characteristics

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that we look for to hire somebody,

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And not as much, the, job oriented

skills or the technical skills.

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Then I would say the other pieces

people get in is really talking

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about it as a live environment.

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And I think calling out off the bat

that like we are going to challenge

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some things that your very beloved,

wonderful mentors in grad school said

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that worked in more contained spaces.

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And then finding good informal

leaders and mentors from within our

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community that are willing to mentor

them, and lovingly say, "Nope, that's

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completely wrong and fucked up.

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Don't do that again."

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Preston: Yep.

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Ceci: Another one of my jobs would

be knowing who some of those people

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are and saying, kindly and not so

kindly, please take my new hire under

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your wing and please feel free to

tell them when they're completely

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out of line within this community.

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Preston: Yeah.

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I've had some great mentors over the

years and one, Lori Gian, who was one

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of the most famous canoeists , wrote

all the book on a canoeing and was

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teaching us advanced canoeing techniques.

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And she came in and she

says, " Preston, love you mean it.

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Don't ever do that thing again".

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I was like, yeah, that's all I needed.

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Thanks very much.

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It was specific, it wasn't about me and it

was, and I've always remembered it right?

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And it was just super helpful.

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You know, I think about when you're

talking the perennial challenge for

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novices entering any field is how

to demonstrate, because you wanna

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prove yourself, how to demonstrate

your confidence and competence while

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also maintaining humility so that

you can hear where you have to learn.

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One day our mutual friend Sean Hulls

and I were sitting, watching an NFL

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team, and we were sitting on the

sidelines and we were watching two human

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performance guys over onto the right.

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And he says, Preston, I want you to

look over there, those two folks.

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And there was a younger guy and an older

guy, just two men working with players.

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And he Was like, who do you

think is gonna stay here longer?

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And I go, I don't know.

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He just watch and he says, what I want

you to pay attention to is that young

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guy right now is lecturing and the old

guy is asking, and the players at this

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level, not so into being lectured.

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The young kid is trying to prove

their worth by demonstrating

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all of their knowledge.

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And unfortunately, that's gonna

provoke an allergic reaction.

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And it's too bad because

they're coming from a place of

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really wanting to contribute.

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It's just the wrong read of the room.

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I don't know if that's something

that you have to deal with.

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Ceci: No, a a hundred percent.

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And I think one of the discussions

I'll have with mental performance

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folks is I, I do not want or need you

to become a specialist or a coach, you

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know, on hitting, pitching, fielding.

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We have people that do that, that

have spent a life learning that,

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that will watch a hit or hit in

a way that you will never see.

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I need you to build a phenomenal

relationship with that hitting coach.

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So that they want to tell you about

what they see, and then you can ask

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them questions or say, you know, from a

mental performance lens, I'm seeing this.

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Does that read right to you?

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And they will do a great job integrating

it, and you will learn how that working

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relationship works between you and them.

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But you never need to

become a hitting specialist.

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You just need to know how to build

that relationship with the person

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that does have that knowledge.

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And one of my coolest moments at winter

meetings where kind of all these people

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get together from all the different

baseball organizations, as I ran into an

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old hitting coach and he said, you know I

always felt like you respected my space.

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You had great things to offer when you

came in, but I used you as my mental

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performance subject matter expert

and you let me be the hitting coach.

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And, and to me it was a wonderful

compliment of a respect of boundaries.

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And I would say like, we didn't

stay in our lanes, quote unquote.

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We actually really blended what those

lanes were, but we blended it through

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conversation and questioning of each

other, and curiosity around how to

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get our players to the best spot.

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But I wasn't trying to become him, and

he candidly didn't wanna become me.

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One of my favorite phrases is none of

the people we're coaching as mental

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performance coaches want a master's

or a PhD in sports psychology.

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So we're not here to profess

to them, and they don't need to

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know all the underlying theories.

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Preston: Right.

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Ceci: They need us to coach 'em

in the skills that are gonna help

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them do whatever they wanna do

to the best of their ability.

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So please, coach, don't

profess, don't lecture.

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You know, our professors have told

us here are the essential components

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of imagery, and we've gotten this

wonderful lecture about imagery.

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And unfortunately, what we have a tendency

to do is then go lecture somebody else

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about imagery instead of actually doing

imagery with them or building what their

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self talk's gonna look like, or building

a pre-performance routine with 'em.

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We talked to 'em about theoretically

how it should work because

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that's what was done to us.

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And so we don't know how to change

it from theory to practice and I,

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I think that's that huge bridge.

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When you look at military

instructors, the way they were

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trained was to become the operator.

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So at the very least, whether or not

the theory is beautifully thought

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out, they're gonna train people how

they were trained or the opposite.

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The way we were trained is

not the way we should train

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others.

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We

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Ceci: were educated.

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We don't need to educate others.

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We need to coach and get in there,

meet people where they're at,

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and, and coach 'em from that spot.

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Preston: Yeah.

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I Agree with all that.

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And I wanna come back to

imagery in a second because

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there's a bunch to unpack there.

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However, what I wanted to reply to

was something that you sparked in me,

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which is, you know, I led and managed

wilderness expeditions all over the

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world for about 30 years, right?

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And so I had multiple,

multiple teams working for me.

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And these are the best

guides in the world.

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They're best Arctic guides, best mountain

guides, they're best in the world.

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And they would all come into my

office and I would sit 'em down.

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I go, here's the deal.

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At the end of this expedition, wherever

you're going, Antarctica, Kilimanjaro,

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Cotopaxi Patagonia, wherever,,

I'm gonna interview your students.

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And what I want to hear from the

students is how much they've changed.

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What I don't want to hear from the

students is how awesome you are.

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And so, if I get back and I'm like,

and the whole conversation is about,

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wow, Ceci is such an amazing guide.

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You have failed.

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You have failed because you

made the program about you.

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And I said, I did not invent this.

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I wish I had.

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But good guides, coaches and mentors in

Preston's humble opinion are midwives and

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their midwives from the person the person

is to the person who the person could be.

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And our job is to help that person

move from who they are right now

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towards their potential, towards

that new version of Preston.

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My job isn't to do it for them.

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My job is to enable them

to do it for themselves.

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So at the end of it, they're celebrating

their own success, not how lucky

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they were to hang out with Preston,

like that has failed the mission.

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And so I say all of that because it's

interesting that we've started off with

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the human aspect of this and not the

skills, not the techniques, not the

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trainings, but just the no kidding,

like, hey, we're working with humans

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and we're working in very developmental,

transformational kind of environments

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at the very elite levels, whether it

be in special operations or sports.

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And so a lot of the simple

stuff has been sorted.

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We're now into the existential

stuff that, like the really growth

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stuff that has to happen in order

for these other things to happen.

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Ceci: Yeah, I mean, I think foundational

in my philosophy is the belief that

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humans have an innate want to grow.

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If you wanna get into like

self-determination theory, right?

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Like that's where I'd be pulling from.

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Like, we wanna feel competent, we wanna

feel autonomous and we wanna feel related.

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And so I think if you come from there,

my job is to meet you where you're at

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and coach you to where you want to go.

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But to your point, I'm

a facilitator, right?

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Like you have all the innate stuff

you need, and I may be introducing

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a, a change of perspective or a

skill base or something else, but you

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need to go do it and play with it.

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So a huge piece for me recently,

especially within mental performance

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is, I think behavioral health and,

and counseling and clinical work and

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mental health within these spaces

has a huge and important space.

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We have a whole department

for that within the Phillies.,

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I was really adamant that we have a

department for that within the Phillies.

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It's essential.

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And there's this place where, within

mental performance, we should be doing it.

356

:

It shouldn't feel like counseling.

357

:

It's not, it's not a

continued conversation.

358

:

There's a place for counseling

conversation, reflective listening,

359

:

even a place for psychoeducation.

360

:

But you should be doing mental performance

if you want to have more intent in your

361

:

day or get closer to a high level of

practice that involves you either writing

362

:

it down or making sure you've put in what

your intent is for the day and checking

363

:

back in on that at the end of the day

to see did you in fact get that done?

364

:

And pulling the value from that day and

knowing what you would do different or

365

:

lock in to make sure you do it again.

366

:

Mental performance should be doing.

367

:

It should feel like a practice.

368

:

That's a huge component.

369

:

When we talk about working

with humans, they should have

370

:

their own experience with it.

371

:

They should come to you with their

own interactions with it, and

372

:

you should be able to hear their

interaction and tailor appropriately.

373

:

This is not putting them through a course.

374

:

It's wildly responsive to the human they

are, especially in these populations.

375

:

Preston: So, we're Gonna use

imagery as a kind of a case study.

376

:

There's a bunch of

moving parts around this.

377

:

And so I want to give you

what I've been seeing as an

378

:

educator in special operations.

379

:

Specifically, I wanna draw our attention

to the prep courses prior to selection.

380

:

So this is the course where they get

the candidates in a very, sort of like

381

:

controlled, calm setting to give them

some skills to be successful in selection.

382

:

And what I've seen over the last 10

years is very well intended, intended

383

:

often veterans that are coming in

from that unit that proceed to teach

384

:

things like imagery through PowerPoint.

385

:

And, and they do it in a way that they're

like, this will solve your problems.

386

:

And so I wanna talk about audience,

I wanna talk about methodology,

387

:

and I wanna talk about habitation.

388

:

And so first audience, the problem with

that is that these well-intended folks are

389

:

thinking, I want to be serious about this.

390

:

A serious environment is a

classroom environment, not a

391

:

practical environment, right?

392

:

That's where I come from,

but that's not serious.

393

:

And so they try to teach something

that needs to be habituated from

394

:

a theoretical lens, which is

already a fail that won't work.

395

:

Secondly, that audience is an audience

who is, by definition, has a higher,

396

:

rate, higher amount, higher, higher

level of neurodivergence in that audience

397

:

than your average school population.

398

:

So already you have a higher

group of people in the room that

399

:

don't look, don't learn very

well in a classroom environment.

400

:

So not only are you doing it wrong, you're

doing it wrong to the wrong audience.

401

:

And then, then what happens is.

402

:

You take that thing because

you believe I've taught it to

403

:

them, therefore they know it.

404

:

And the truth is that there

are some things that don't...

405

:

let's talk about the

neuroscience for a second.

406

:

In your forehead is the prefrontal cortex.

407

:

And if you go back to the base of

your skull, right, is your sort of

408

:

cortical stacking and the brain extends

all the way down your spinal cord.

409

:

You're learning throughout

your whole body.

410

:

You have the ability to learn actions.

411

:

But how to block a punch is

not the same way you learn, for

412

:

example, how to buy a house, right?

413

:

And, those parts of the

brain learn differently.

414

:

Some learn kinetically,

some learn cognitively.

415

:

And so by not habituating it, what you've

done is you've created overconfidence.

416

:

But under competence.

417

:

And so now you set somebody up

so the first time they get their

418

:

face ripped off, they go to be

like, oh, I'm gonna image this.

419

:

And it does not work at all.

420

:

And so that's why I often ask people,

they say, we're gonna teach this.

421

:

And I ask, in order for it to be

successful, does it need to be a habit?

422

:

Rule number one: are you

teaching something that has

423

:

to be a habit to be useful?

424

:

You have to be, autonomic, you

have to not think about it.

425

:

And they're like, yeah.

426

:

And I was like, do not be in a classroom.

427

:

Right.

428

:

That won't, that's not how you do that.

429

:

You know how to do that.

430

:

Just do that that way.

431

:

And I

432

:

Preston: Know I'm hitting a lot;

we can unpack all of this again.

433

:

But imagery is a really good example

because imagery has been shown , and

434

:

you'll know this better than I do,

but has been very successful in things

435

:

where you can control the environment.

436

:

So a pitch in rugby, or a

baseball field, or a swim lane.

437

:

Where it doesn't work very well is when

you do not control the environment.

438

:

So CQB, and what that means is you

teach someone how to do visioning

439

:

and they try to vision CQB.

440

:

What they're actually doing is

what's called choreographing.

441

:

They're trying to plan

out their first 10 steps.

442

:

Well, the instructor cadre are

super clever about this, and they're

443

:

gonna move the room every time.

444

:

Which means that you're gonna walk in, the

reality is not gonna match your imagery so

445

:

you're gonna stutter step, and then you're

gonna get into basically a spiral of

446

:

errors that you're trying to recover from.

447

:

And usually if you don't have good

reset ability to recover from that,

448

:

that is often a pathway to despair.

449

:

So those were a lot of things,

methodology, audience, theoretical

450

:

to practical, and then also just

the limits of human performance.

451

:

I realize that's a whole bunch of things.

452

:

We can take some time and

unpack all those things.

453

:

Ceci: We started out this conversation

by saying, Hey, there's some similarities

454

:

between, mental performance for high

level sport, and for the military.

455

:

And I would say what you're

hitting on right now is one of the

456

:

things that's vastly different,

is how much can be planned, right?

457

:

You know, the exact distance between the

pitcher and the mound and home plate.

458

:

We know the distance between

home plate and first base.

459

:

We know the rules of the game.

460

:

We know generally how they're gonna go.

461

:

We know all these things.

462

:

And so there's some beautiful

places for imagery within sport

463

:

and known events, where it makes a

lot of sense to get the reps on it.

464

:

I will say, I love creating imagery

for what you don't want to happen.

465

:

We don't do it enough.

466

:

It's one of the things that drives

me nuts within our field And

467

:

sometimes athletes will say, well,

I don't want to mentally go there.

468

:

And to me, the point that you're

actually rehearsing within the imagery

469

:

is your response to it and your ability

to respond in a way that allows you

470

:

to perform for whatever happens next.

471

:

One of the stories that I heard from

a player, with Ken Ravizza, a guy

472

:

that's kinda a godfather within mental

performance in baseball . Before

473

:

a college World Series with UCLA,

he had them do an imagery where

474

:

someone hit a homerun off their own

pitcher in like the third inning.

475

:

And sure as shit, it happened, right?

476

:

This happened.

477

:

And then the pitcher recovered well

and went on to pitch a great game.

478

:

In baseball you can survive that way.

479

:

I applaud his courage in bringing

non-perfect imagery into that setting,

480

:

because I think that's actually

what builds mental toughness if we

481

:

talk about it within an athlete.

482

:

And so I love imagery for pictures where

you get a runner on first or a runner

483

:

on second, or you have a guy that steals

a base and what are you gonna do next?

484

:

And so it's more about actually his

human response than scripting, how

485

:

he's going to pitch and exactly what

pitches he's gonna throw to somebody.

486

:

Now, I think as we get into

the military piece, you need to

487

:

figure out what can be imaged.

488

:

Yeah.

489

:

Where does visioning work?

490

:

And so to take even that example, can

I help a soldier figure out, you know,

491

:

a deep breath and what it looks like

to create kind of a good state for

492

:

them before they even enter the house?

493

:

Yeah.

494

:

We know they're gonna probably get

in a stack, and so it's reasonable to

495

:

take a moment and imagine and work on a

diaphragmatic breath, and what it feels

496

:

like to get that moment before they go in.

497

:

That's not gonna happen a

hundred percent of the time.

498

:

Sometimes they're moving,

sometimes they're running off

499

:

the helicopter, who knows?

500

:

But it happens a lot.

501

:

Do I want them to image what's

happening as they move through a house?

502

:

No.

503

:

To your exact point, because no house is

the same and scripting it doesn't work.

504

:

And, we see that even in baseball as

like a hitter trying to, anticipate

505

:

the pitch or guess the pitch and

not actually reading what's the

506

:

pitcher's doing, doesn't go well.

507

:

So, there are things that are great

for mental skills and there are things

508

:

that are not aligned to mental skills.

509

:

And you need to pay really close

attention to them because, while

510

:

imagery can build comfort, or to your

point, confidence, within the person.

511

:

It's comfort and confidence built on

an unrealistic expectation, right?

512

:

That things will happen the way

you thought they were gonna happen.

513

:

Um, and I think the military

always says, every plan is perfect

514

:

until you leave the wire, right?

515

:

Like the moment, the moment you

step out of the safe zone, the enemy

516

:

gets a vote, everything changes.

517

:

So imagining perfect or imagining plan

one or spending too much time exactly

518

:

on that may not serve you very well.

519

:

But there are small pieces that might

serve you if used appropriately.

520

:

And if you know yourself well enough,

or whoever's coaching you, knows you

521

:

well enough to know what are like

trip points that you may be able to

522

:

work on, how to get through faster.

523

:

Preston: I didn't mean to suggest

at all that imagery wasn't useful.

524

:

I think it is very, very useful.

525

:

I think knowing how powerful

it is, but also knowing where

526

:

the constraints are would only

limitations better serve everyone.

527

:

Ceci: Yes.

528

:

And I think being able to talk

about what it does do and doesn't

529

:

do for you and what it's building.

530

:

So I think we also find with high

performers is they'll get a tool that

531

:

they find really elevates whatever

they're doing and they wanna use that

532

:

tool for everything because it was

magical for this one thing, and I get it.

533

:

But I think that's the really interesting

part and and difficult part with

534

:

working with humans is saying, yes,

this was absolutely phenomenal and

535

:

it elevated the levels of whatever

else you were doing and you may or

536

:

may not be able to bring it here.

537

:

So we need to now develop this

new tool and we don't love

538

:

being uncomfortable as humans.

539

:

And I think often as a mental

performance coach, what you're

540

:

doing is, walking people through

the next uncomfortable thing.

541

:

Yeah.

542

:

I joke within the Phillies that I like

to build very comfortable offices.

543

:

I oftentimes have like lounge chairs

and couches, funny enough in my office.

544

:

And part of the reason for that

is it's a comfortable space to

545

:

do really uncomfortable work.

546

:

Preston: Yeah.

547

:

Ceci: But I think your other point that

you brought up is that the classroom

548

:

is like the serious learning space.

549

:

And if, especially within these

populations, if someone's gonna have

550

:

to do something, go be there when

they're doing it or do it with them

551

:

or have them do it and work within the

problems that come up in that moment.

552

:

A huge piece for us in Philly right

now is how much can we close the

553

:

gap between how we're teaching a

mental skill or, or a mental tool and

554

:

where they're gonna have to use it.

555

:

The greater the gap, the more we bring

'em into a classroom and away from a

556

:

baseball field, the more work the athlete

has to do to create that transfer.

557

:

The closer we get into that space

where it's actually happening and can

558

:

coach it as it actually occurs in the

setting where they're actually gonna

559

:

use it, the more powerful it becomes.

560

:

And it places the stress on us as mental

performance coaches to have enough

561

:

contextual knowledge or situational

awareness to be appropriate within

562

:

their performance space, which is I

think candidly where it should be.

563

:

Not on the performer to

create all that transfer.

564

:

So if we're talking self-talk and we can

talk it while someone's throwing a bullpen

565

:

or we can talk it of what are you doing

in the OnDeck circle as you're prepping

566

:

in the OnDeck circle and then getting

into a batter's box, it's a lot easier

567

:

for the athlete to say, yes, this fits.

568

:

No, this fits.

569

:

Yes, I could do that.

570

:

No, I could do that.

571

:

Ooh, God, no, that's way too much time.

572

:

You know, they can see whether or

not it works and we can coach in that

573

:

space and find right answers for them.

574

:

And I, I think probably a hallmark

for me, starting with action, the

575

:

military stuff and some early work

with AWG and then moving through

576

:

into, um, the sports spaces.

577

:

I've always been someone that liked to

get in my performer space, so I spent

578

:

a lot of time at Camp McCall out in the

woods and camping and, you know, people

579

:

like Kenny Young were instrumental

for me out there of just being able to

580

:

actually understand what the performance

space looked like so that I was coaching

581

:

appropriately within that space and not

saying, Hey, I taught this in a classroom

582

:

and now you can go figure out how to put

it into your world under stress while

583

:

you're physically moving and carrying 70

pounds and trying to do everything else.

584

:

Preston: One of the criticism I have

of most instructor cadre training

585

:

in the military, is it's often

done incorrectly in the sense that

586

:

it's done in the classroom when

it should be done in the field.

587

:

And that isn't to say that there

isn't a place for more advanced

588

:

training where you dig into the theory

and unpack the neuroscience of it.

589

:

That is absolutely appropriate.

590

:

We do a lot of that work.

591

:

But if you're taking somebody who's

no kidding, just been an operator,

592

:

and you're just gonna stick 'em in

a schoolhouse for a little while,

593

:

don't put 'em in a classroom.

594

:

Put 'em in an, an evolution, a

selection evolution, and then do it 30

595

:

times and then just pull it apart so

they understand why are we doing it?

596

:

What can go wrong?

597

:

Where are the levers that you

can pull, et cetera, et cetera.

598

:

The other question I get asked, and

I pause it to my teams all the time,

599

:

is, and this has evolved a lot for me,

600

:

which is, if a student is struggling,

what percentage of that is the

601

:

instructor's problem or the coach's

problem, and what percentage of

602

:

that is the student's problem?

603

:

And it's early in my career, I would

say that's mostly the instructor's

604

:

problem, and I'm still mostly there.

605

:

However, I can't want it more

than the student wants it.

606

:

It's very Much a partnership.

607

:

And it's not a patriarchy,

it's not a dominance play.

608

:

Early it is because they're

just scared and they're young.

609

:

But at the pro levels, it has to

be a partnership because they've

610

:

gotta be as engaged as you are

in order to unlock who they are.

611

:

Ceci: I think a big thing for me is,

what exists within that environment

612

:

for the performer to advocate for

themselves in some way, shape or form.

613

:

So I was working at a high level shooting

course at one point, and the instructors

614

:

got to a beautiful place where they

were really curious about exactly.

615

:

That question, how much is it

the, the soldier's problem when

616

:

they're failing some of the early

parts of the shooting course, and

617

:

how much is it the instructors?

618

:

And so with some of the students,

they would actually switch

619

:

out who the instructor was.

620

:

They would just move the soldier

to another group and see if

621

:

that elevated performance.

622

:

And they were trying to give the

student the benefit of the doubt.

623

:

And I thought it actually was a really

powerful, beautiful move from the

624

:

instructors because they were more

interested in trying to figure out if

625

:

there was a different fit that might

work for that soldier than they were

626

:

in their own ego in that situation.

627

:

But I think it was also a lot

easier to say after the soldier

628

:

had been moved a bit, you know,

Hey, we've tried multiple things.

629

:

Yeah.

630

:

And we're not seeing different outcomes

or different behaviors from the student.

631

:

To your point, they need to want it,

they've got their own piece to play.

632

:

But it was a great environment to really

take a look at whose role was what.

633

:

I do think there's times where

my mental performance coaches

634

:

will want it more than a player.

635

:

They'll set up this beautiful kind of plan

and the player will have said Yes, yes.

636

:

And then they just don't show up to stuff.

637

:

And I'll say, well, we keep the

door open, but if the player doesn't

638

:

walk through, this doesn't work.

639

:

And I think one of the interesting

things if you go to like clinical

640

:

therapy is, in classic therapy, the

payment is an important part of the

641

:

person paying for therapy is oftentimes

an important part, that the person

642

:

is investing something, that they are

putting money or skin in the game.

643

:

It's an interesting thing when you work,

you know, when you're contracting for

644

:

the military where it's paid for, or

when you're working for a baseball club,

645

:

where we're paid for is the athlete.

646

:

The performer still has to

put some skin in the game.

647

:

They still have to invest

some of what they want to do.

648

:

And so we do spend time talking

about things like, trans theoretical

649

:

models, so like stages of change.

650

:

Where are they in their willingness

or want, or their awareness that

651

:

they're gonna have to change

something or do something.

652

:

But I Think it's an interesting

piece to play with there too,

653

:

because there's a heavy weight

on getting the instruction right.

654

:

And sometimes I'll talk about that

as the coaches in the room they need

655

:

to have their stuff buttoned up to

me and they need to be organized.

656

:

And there's very little excuse for that.

657

:

Where the variance in behavior

should occur is along your

658

:

performers, your soldiers,

659

:

your students.

660

:

Both of them have investments

that have to be made.

661

:

Preston: One of my early mentors, a guy

named Phil Costello, left us too early,

662

:

um, at, at a place called Project U.S.E.,

663

:

a Wilderness Program for kids at risk.

664

:

One of the comments that he made to me,

one of his rules for performance, whether

665

:

he was working with executives or kids,

was he, he said, just never assume buy-in,

666

:

never assume that the person in front of

you fully understands why they're there,

667

:

or fully is engaged in what they're doing.

668

:

Part of your job is to help paint the

picture of the journey we're about

669

:

to take and why it matters to them.

670

:

So that, that sort of start with

why by, you know, Simon Sinek

671

:

and others, it actually is true.

672

:

And sometimes as we get on in this

business, we assume that because I'm Dr.

673

:

Preston Cline or your Ceci

Craft that people will, oh,

674

:

they're just lucky to have us.

675

:

Right?

676

:

So the, the buy-in is assumed.

677

:

It's not.

678

:

Every time I have to start off

and say, Hey guys, just as a

679

:

reminder, here's the team you're on.

680

:

Here's why this team matters

to our country or this country,

681

:

whatever country I'm in.

682

:

And why if we get it wrong,

the consequence get it wrong.

683

:

But if we get it right, what's possible,

and all of us, in order to do that,

684

:

have to move in that direction.

685

:

And you'll literally see people

sitting up like, oh, right, I

686

:

forgot I kind of fell into a rut.

687

:

I forgot.

688

:

Oh, that's right.

689

:

And I have to do that every time.

690

:

Ceci: Yeah, I think

you make a great point.

691

:

The NCO Academy for Special Forces was one

of the places that oftentimes humbled me.

692

:

If I ever got to a point where I

thought I had stuff figured out,

693

:

I'd walk into that room and it's 45

senior non-commissioned officers.

694

:

There can be a bit of a pack mentality

and I remember I'd come from like

695

:

briefing SOCOM or something big and I

kind of walked in the room and I started

696

:

giving the brief and someone was like, I

don't believe anything you have to say.

697

:

My reaction to it

actually was really poor.

698

:

It was like, so you don't

believe in statistics.

699

:

Nope.

700

:

don't believe any of it.

701

:

You can fudge all that stuff.

702

:

And I, my thought in my head

was like, well, you're an idiot.

703

:

As you can imagine, that

translated great in room.

704

:

Yeah, they ate me alive that

day and it was a good reminder

705

:

for me of like, hold on.

706

:

I didn't stop there and say, I appreciate

the opportunity to be in this room.

707

:

Here's why I am in this room

and I'm here to serve you.

708

:

Yeah.

709

:

And I think if you ever lose the, like,

I'm here to serve you component, yeah.

710

:

You know, baseball, these are my,

these are my players' careers.

711

:

It's not mine.

712

:

You have to be in service to that.

713

:

And I think it's a good reminder

of how we start all our work.

714

:

Because at the end of

the day, it's about them.

715

:

It's not about us.

716

:

You're not supposed to

be the memorable thing.

717

:

You are supposed to be the facilitator

and what drives my passion and my

718

:

curiosity is learning more about all

the different ways that that works.

719

:

Oftentimes mental performance

and sports psychology is taught

720

:

from a counseling background.

721

:

And it's actually one of the things

that moved me out of a counseling

722

:

style of mental performance and

into a coaching style of mental

723

:

performance is in a counseling model,

you generally wait to who for whoever

724

:

you're working with to be ready.

725

:

And so it's on their timeline.

726

:

One of the things that happened both

in the military, and in pro sport

727

:

is it's not on a student's timeline.

728

:

It's on the length of that course

and the skills they need to acquire

729

:

by a certain period of time.

730

:

Or in professional baseball, everybody has

like a length of time in the minor leagues

731

:

that, that you have to figure certain

things out and accomplish a certain

732

:

amount of performance, skill, whatever,

otherwise your career's gonna end.

733

:

And so there is this place as a mental

performance coach that I think it's

734

:

really important that you step in and

say, you may or may not wanna hear this

735

:

at this point, and, you know, trans

theoretical model, you may not be in

736

:

a place where you're ready to change.

737

:

As somebody that does care about your

career and is here to speak to, you

738

:

know, a, a reasonable, side of things.

739

:

We need to get here.

740

:

So what can I do to support that?

741

:

What can I do to, to coach that with you?

742

:

You know, I'm happy to climb in

the foxhole with you, but like,

743

:

what, what do we do to get there?

744

:

Because this has to change.

745

:

If you wanna continue to develop or

you told me you want to get here and

746

:

if you want to get here, we're gonna

have to move through this uncomfortable

747

:

space that you've been avoiding.

748

:

And I've watched you avoid it for

a little bit, but we can't keep

749

:

avoiding if you wanna get to where

you've told me you wanna get to.

750

:

Preston: A friend of mine named Hutch

Parker, I met him a few years ago

751

:

and we've since become friends and

he continues to coach and mentor me.

752

:

He is the former, movie producer

for the movie's, Venom and a

753

:

whole bunch of other movies.

754

:

And as a movie producer, he is the person

in between the money and the creatives.

755

:

So his job is to make sure that

the creatives have the space

756

:

they need to make a great movie.

757

:

And that the people that are paying

for this get a return on investment.

758

:

And he said, what people don't

understand is that the money

759

:

is often not the big problem.

760

:

We can throw money at people, but it turns

out that true art needs some constraints.

761

:

Art for art's sake rarely works out.

762

:

If you take an artist and you

put some constraints and some

763

:

limitations on them, they actually

tend to produce better things.

764

:

And I think that's true with athletes

and performers and special operators.

765

:

Where I've seen special operations

sometimes lose their way is when

766

:

they can buy anything they want.

767

:

And so suddenly they're in this place

where they have no one telling them no.

768

:

If you go to, say, SAS or some of the

other countries like, or the Marine

769

:

Corps, where you gotta kind of scrap for

resources, you'll often get to better

770

:

cheaper solutions, or quicker solutions,

rather waiting for the Ferrari solution.

771

:

And so I think this idea of constraints

as you were sort of getting at, like some

772

:

boundaries, some limits, some deadlines

are actually very useful to people

773

:

reaching towards their higher self.

774

:

Ceci: Yeah.

775

:

Again, We have two populations,

right, that have joined to

776

:

be something aspirational.

777

:

Preston: Yeah.

778

:

Ceci: Right.

779

:

And so when we talk about, again,

you know, want to grow, want to

780

:

accomplish, want to perform, want to

succeed , I'm lucky these populations

781

:

generally have that style of

motivation or that level of motivation.

782

:

So yes, I think it's how, but I think

we also, like, as humans, we get in our

783

:

own ways, we'll talk sometimes with our

players as they go, into the off season,

784

:

that they're gonna go hang out with

their college friends and they're gonna

785

:

ask questions like, do you really have

to be that careful about what you eat?

786

:

Or you know, Hey, let's just

have one great night at the bar.

787

:

Do you really have to

go work out tomorrow?

788

:

There's this tension between like,

that doesn't seem so bad yet in a high

789

:

performance population, that can derail

things and, and it can have, impacts,

790

:

especially when you're trying to compete

against all these other people that are

791

:

part of a high performance population

and trying to do similar tough stuff.

792

:

I do think constraints are important.

793

:

I think they can help be aspirational.

794

:

And I think we talk a lot about

preparing our players to perform in

795

:

Philadelphia, not protecting them.

796

:

And I think when you really believe

in humans and how amazing we are,

797

:

and how adaptable we are and how

capable we are, you can prepare

798

:

humans to do absolutely amazing things

that we don't even know exist yet.

799

:

Potential is something we build every day.

800

:

It's not something that anyone

predicts particularly well.

801

:

We have to be building it.

802

:

So are we challenging the humans

around us to be amazing and capable

803

:

and great exercisers of judgment?

804

:

And are we creating

training that challenges?

805

:

Or Are We trying to protect 'em and build

things like confidence through comfort

806

:

or confidence through information which

doesn't actually serve when they end up

807

:

in whatever their performance setting is.

808

:

I think part of what you're talking about

is what got me really passionate about

809

:

like high performance cultures is like

how do we build kind of the rules of the

810

:

game or the rules of our culture in such

a way that it helps facilitate what humans

811

:

are in fact capable of, versus trying to

create safer, comfortable environments,

812

:

that people may enjoy, but I don't think

it actually helps people reach the edge

813

:

or the peak of what they're capable of.

814

:

Preston: I have been having a

series of conversations with people

815

:

about red wine, and it's really

interesting because there's obviously

816

:

Huberman and others have shown that

alcohol is not great for you, right?

817

:

Stress is not great for you, right?

818

:

And disconnection and

isolation is not good for you.

819

:

And so there's this really interesting

phenomenon, and I'm not advocating

820

:

everyone, I, I get the research, but I

want you to just play this out, is that

821

:

sitting around moderately drinking red

wine with a group of friends, a little

822

:

bit de inhibitor, being able to share

communitas, being able to share some

823

:

stories over a fire and being able to

have that moment, without getting crazy,

824

:

I'm not talking about that, is an offset

to life stresses that yeah, there's

825

:

probably other healthy ways to do it.

826

:

But in male culture, in other cultures,

this is one avenue to do that.

827

:

And so it's always this really

interesting tension that I'm hearing

828

:

in the world between people, like in

high performance, like, oh, you gotta

829

:

cut all that stuff out of your life.

830

:

And then I watched them be really

very tightly wrapped and I was

831

:

like, maybe a glass of wine

wouldn't be the worst thing for you.

832

:

Right.

833

:

And so it's that, it's a really

interesting in high performance.

834

:

How do you balance all this competing

research to live a more fulfilling life?

835

:

And I am not talking about the extremes

here, but just in a normal everyday life.

836

:

Ceci: Preston, you're hitting it.

837

:

And I think if both of us think about

like the cultures that we spend a lot

838

:

of time around, I mean, I think special

ops community in particular, right?

839

:

Like they are not living

a pure life generally.

840

:

Some are.

841

:

Yeah.

842

:

And I, I think that there's a

piece of it of, of figuring out.

843

:

What's your human way to do this?

844

:

Preston: Yeah.

845

:

Ceci: And it's not written

in a textbook somewhere.

846

:

I was just listening to you and Art on

the last podcast talking about selection

847

:

processes and hey, if we get too narrow

and we lose kind of the diversity within

848

:

these populations, we're losing out.

849

:

The guys that I've worked around broke

all kinds of rules of what you should

850

:

do for quote unquote high performance.

851

:

I think it's one of the things that makes

my job so interesting is it's, it's not

852

:

sitting and prescribing, never, ever drink

and always get eight to 10 hours of sleep.

853

:

It's not that.

854

:

Because different guys, especially when

we talk about, again, these outlier

855

:

populations can do things different ways.

856

:

And to your point, that glass of

wine may be one of the most important

857

:

things they do because it's how

they know how to interconnect, how

858

:

they maintain connections with other

people and don't become isolated.

859

:

Preston: Yeah.

860

:

Ceci: And I do think the highest

functioning people, I'll say this,

861

:

of mental performance coaches too.

862

:

The highest functioning people in my field

and in any high performance field have

863

:

decided what rules they're gonna listen

to and what rules they're gonna understand

864

:

exist and decide when they violate 'em.

865

:

Preston: Yeah.

866

:

Ceci: And they are reading, whether it's

human terrain or literal terrain in front

867

:

of them, and deciding what applies when.

868

:

I think there's failure in our field

when people get so task-oriented that

869

:

they lose the humans in front of 'em.

870

:

I think in any high performance field,

when you get too prescribed and you

871

:

lose the ability to read and adapt to

what's working, what's around you and

872

:

what you as a human need in that moment,

you're gonna dull your performance.

873

:

You're gonna dull your capability.

874

:

Yeah.

875

:

You, you, you have to

maintain adaptable there.

876

:

And it looks different at

different stages of life too.

877

:

Preston: Yeah.

878

:

A hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent

879

:

Ceci: Thursdays.

880

:

That worked for my players before.

881

:

Things that work when the kids were young

are not the same as when the kids are old.

882

:

You have to keep living your

life and looking around you and

883

:

figuring out what fits why and how.

884

:

Preston: Yeah.

885

:

Ceci: So I've certainly, you know,

been at stages of life where I'm very

886

:

rarely touching a drop of alcohol.

887

:

And then, for example, I'll get

around like an amazing population

888

:

where they're gonna go have a beer.

889

:

And being Part of that conversation

and getting to have a beer too Yeah.

890

:

Is gonna make me so much better at my job.

891

:

Preston: A hundred percent.

892

:

Ceci: And it's gonna make me also

relax around this like, wildly

893

:

intimidating, amazing population

that I get to sit and listen to.

894

:

Preston: We know we've talked a lot on

this Teamcast, and things I'm obviously

895

:

passionate about is that there is a

genuine and significant difference

896

:

between the routine world and the

extraordinary world of the critical world.

897

:

And the truth is, is that there are a

lot of rules that are very important

898

:

to have in the routine world that need

to be violated in the critical world.

899

:

And the reason for that simply is, a

trauma nurse who's just lost three kids

900

:

in a day, special operator, who just

lost their buddy, a, a major league

901

:

player who just lost the World Series.

902

:

These aren't routine days.

903

:

These are not days where

the normal rules will apply.

904

:

They have lived through something

that is absolutely extraordinary.

905

:

And if their choice is to all

get together, get drunk by a fire

906

:

and howl the moon, I'm gonna be

like, can I help buy the liquor?

907

:

Like, I'll help make the fire,

because there's gonna be a

908

:

beginning, a middle, and an end.

909

:

There's gonna be an after where

we'll clean up some of that stuff.

910

:

But the actual like explosion

of emotion needs to happen.

911

:

And so it's better that it happens in that

environment, even if there's fist fights

912

:

and wrestling matches and screaming.

913

:

Let's get that sorted out so it

doesn't get sorted out at home, or

914

:

it gets stifled or whatever else.

915

:

Is that the most healthy way to do it?

916

:

I have no idea, but I also know we don't

know enough about those environments

917

:

and about the recovery from those

environments to get too, too prescriptive

918

:

about what is right and wrong.

919

:

Ceci: Yeah.

920

:

Good Mental performance coaching

is knowing your people well enough

921

:

to know if something falls like

well beyond the bandwidth of

922

:

what this person should be doing.

923

:

Yeah.

924

:

Right?

925

:

But there's a large amount

of variation in that.

926

:

So like my wildly passionate,

fully committed, this is

927

:

everything I am in life.

928

:

My identity is totally

tied to this at this point.

929

:

When bad things happen, we're

gonna watch that style of response.

930

:

And my job might be to stand on

the edge of the cliff and say, just

931

:

don't, just don't come off here.

932

:

Yeah, that's right.

933

:

You can have your bonfire,

you can dance in a circle.

934

:

You can be naked.

935

:

I don't care.

936

:

Yeah.

937

:

Just don't pass me.

938

:

Preston: Yeah.

939

:

Don't drown.

940

:

Like, you know

941

:

Ceci: what I mean?

942

:

Go swimming.

943

:

This is my safety rail.

944

:

Right.

945

:

And I will be here to be a safety

rail on it, but there's a huge

946

:

bandwidth of behavior that's totally

okay with me that most of society's

947

:

not gonna understand or care for.

948

:

Let's just be safe about it and go for it.

949

:

That's right.

950

:

And then, yes, we can talk in

the weeks to follow different

951

:

ways that we wanna recover.

952

:

What that looks like when you bring it

home or, you know, how do we continue

953

:

to take that on as the years go?

954

:

But I think when you're interacting

with all these populations,

955

:

again, early conversations

are, you know, Ceci, I'm Crazy.

956

:

You're not crazy.

957

:

You're wildly high functioning.

958

:

Preston: Yeah.

959

:

Ceci: And that's great.

960

:

So let's respond appropriately and not try

to put you in a quote unquote normal box.

961

:

And let's find a great

way to live life that way.

962

:

Preston: In my personal career of just

dealing with fatalities or serious

963

:

injuries or rescues or anything else,

you know, I've had friends from time to

964

:

time saying, Hey, Preston, that's pushing

you towards the edge of who you are.

965

:

And I was like, oh no.

966

:

I'm three derivations away from that.

967

:

Like we've, we've exceeded

that three or four times.

968

:

I am so far beyond, I can't even

see the old Preston right now.

969

:

And so I'm in territory where

there's not even a rope back.

970

:

And people often in the routine

world are like, wow, you really, you

971

:

really pushed past yourself today?

972

:

I was like, no, no, that's

not what we're talking about.

973

:

I jumped out of a plane.

974

:

This is not like I crossed a bridge.

975

:

This is a, I've, I've left the atmosphere.

976

:

And so it's, it is interesting when we, we

have to be really careful about applying

977

:

the rules from our world to other people's

world if we don't understand it properly.

978

:

And I think that gets back to, you know,

a lot of these universities will prepare

979

:

people to work in, say, college athletics,

where things are very controlled.

980

:

Then we try to take those theories

and lessons and apply them to a

981

:

forest fire or to an open ocean

rescue, or combat or surgery.

982

:

And there are significant and

realistic differences in those

983

:

environments that matter.

984

:

Ceci: Yeah.

985

:

I Always describe like, Hey, if you're

gonna go work with the military, treat

986

:

it like culture shock, treat it like

you're walking into another country.

987

:

Learn their cultures, their customs, their

language, and abide by it to an extent,

988

:

as a visitor, as a foreigner, abide

by it, but let yourself get in there.

989

:

Right?

990

:

Yeah.

991

:

Like, and make sure you're spending

time learning it and not trying to

992

:

super impose your culture first.

993

:

Preston: Yeah.

994

:

Ceci: Because I do think when you see

people and when you take the time, to

995

:

see how they function, why they function,

you know, where they function it helps

996

:

you make sure that you don't violate

those with like, with parameters that

997

:

you've learned from somewhere else.

998

:

Probably one of the things that

was good for me is, you know, I

999

:

grew up in Berkeley, California.

:

00:46:50,675 --> 00:46:54,515

My first big job in this field was

with military, was on Fort Bragg.

:

00:46:54,725 --> 00:46:57,185

Literally the gate guards are like

looking at my id coming through it.

:

00:46:57,185 --> 00:46:59,855

I think we had people living in

trees in California and Berkeley

:

00:46:59,855 --> 00:47:01,955

at that point 'cause they were

protesting trees being taken down.

:

00:47:02,285 --> 00:47:04,715

And so they're like cracking jokes

with me every morning when I walk in.

:

00:47:05,015 --> 00:47:08,495

And I didn't know how I felt about

working with a military culture.

:

00:47:08,795 --> 00:47:11,545

But learning the people and the

culture, like it was amazing.

:

00:47:11,585 --> 00:47:13,908

I love being around these

people in this culture.

:

00:47:14,178 --> 00:47:15,828

But it was so shocking to me.

:

00:47:15,828 --> 00:47:16,818

I mean, it was so different.

:

00:47:16,818 --> 00:47:18,768

I knew I was so much in a

different world that I think

:

00:47:18,768 --> 00:47:20,118

I treated it like past travel.

:

00:47:20,118 --> 00:47:22,548

So it wasn't different than going to

Bolivia or going to my semester abroad

:

00:47:22,548 --> 00:47:23,748

in Cuba or doing something else.

:

00:47:23,988 --> 00:47:24,198

Preston: Yeah,

:

00:47:24,473 --> 00:47:26,783

Ceci: I think if you don't lose

sight of the human in front of you

:

00:47:26,783 --> 00:47:29,783

and you really build for the humans

in front of you or the performers in

:

00:47:29,783 --> 00:47:31,943

front of you, you're gonna be fine.

:

00:47:31,943 --> 00:47:34,793

And you're also gonna figure out

what you learned perhaps in grad

:

00:47:34,793 --> 00:47:37,903

school that this community just

violates or runs all the way over.

:

00:47:37,933 --> 00:47:41,221

I also think it's one of the beautiful

parts about performance psychology is

:

00:47:41,221 --> 00:47:44,551

if you're in a half decent program,

you should have been studying outliers

:

00:47:44,551 --> 00:47:46,141

or high performers the whole time.

:

00:47:46,261 --> 00:47:49,291

The reason the field of performance

psychology separated itself from

:

00:47:49,291 --> 00:47:52,861

general clinical psychology is

because the psychology of high

:

00:47:52,861 --> 00:47:54,631

performers is in fact different.

:

00:47:54,781 --> 00:47:57,601

And the school tools they need

and the things they're working for

:

00:47:57,751 --> 00:48:00,691

are in fact, different than what

a person with a clinical disorder

:

00:48:00,691 --> 00:48:02,701

needs to get closer to normal.

:

00:48:02,881 --> 00:48:03,241

Right.

:

00:48:03,271 --> 00:48:07,771

And so you really should be building

around high performance, and high

:

00:48:07,771 --> 00:48:10,501

performance in different contexts

with different people, with different

:

00:48:10,501 --> 00:48:12,391

cultures looks very different.

:

00:48:12,511 --> 00:48:15,691

And so you should be

constantly adapting, tailoring.

:

00:48:15,821 --> 00:48:18,401

The model I did with the Cleveland

Guardians looks different from what

:

00:48:18,401 --> 00:48:19,721

I do with the Philadelphia Phillies.

:

00:48:19,841 --> 00:48:22,361

They're both baseball teams in

a totally predictable sport.

:

00:48:22,361 --> 00:48:24,191

But what it takes to play in

Cleveland is different from what

:

00:48:24,191 --> 00:48:25,361

it takes to play in Philadelphia.

:

00:48:25,661 --> 00:48:28,901

And so if I brought over the same mental

performance model, it would be wrong.

:

00:48:29,321 --> 00:48:30,761

Preston: Yeah, a hundred percent.

:

00:48:31,091 --> 00:48:33,911

So we're getting close to the end, but

there's two subjects I wanna touch on.

:

00:48:33,911 --> 00:48:35,021

One is confidence.

:

00:48:35,331 --> 00:48:38,991

You had mentioned earlier of just

this, like what is it and like,

:

00:48:38,991 --> 00:48:41,721

how do we build it and what, what

actually matters and all that stuff.

:

00:48:41,781 --> 00:48:44,811

And then I wanna talk a little bit

about transition and identity and then,

:

00:48:44,861 --> 00:48:46,361

any closing thoughts you might have.

:

00:48:46,571 --> 00:48:49,211

So I wanna start with confidence

and just any thoughts on

:

00:48:49,421 --> 00:48:50,231

what does that mean to you?

:

00:48:50,231 --> 00:48:51,911

Like, what is, what's going on there?

:

00:48:52,731 --> 00:48:55,614

Ceci: So leaving The military, one of

the things that was really interesting

:

00:48:55,614 --> 00:48:59,734

to me was special forces teams, that

were deploying and how they trained.

:

00:49:00,184 --> 00:49:05,524

And I, I was, it was very interesting

to me when I came in as a five foot

:

00:49:05,524 --> 00:49:09,274

six female and would get to run mental

performance training, some of the

:

00:49:09,274 --> 00:49:13,294

teams were almost like, giddy about

like, what are you gonna throw at

:

00:49:13,294 --> 00:49:14,704

us and what's it gonna look like?

:

00:49:14,764 --> 00:49:17,584

And some of the teams and their

leadership would say, you need

:

00:49:17,584 --> 00:49:20,404

to map out exactly what you're

doing so I can prepare my guys.

:

00:49:20,494 --> 00:49:20,734

Preston: Yep.

:

00:49:21,604 --> 00:49:24,874

Ceci: And it, I, I was shocked by that

because these guys were going overseas

:

00:49:24,874 --> 00:49:28,639

into completely, you know, unpredictable

situations and were selected for their

:

00:49:28,639 --> 00:49:30,874

ability to handle unknown situations.

:

00:49:31,204 --> 00:49:34,574

And again, I'm a five foot six

female contractor, that can't do

:

00:49:34,574 --> 00:49:37,814

half of what they can do n not even

a third or a quarter or an eighth.

:

00:49:37,874 --> 00:49:41,579

So I Started to think a lot about it

and who were like the team sergeants

:

00:49:41,579 --> 00:49:44,849

that were hungry for the challenge

and hungry for me to challenge their

:

00:49:44,849 --> 00:49:46,139

teams and didn't wanna know anything.

:

00:49:46,769 --> 00:49:49,229

And what did that mean for

when these guys went overseas?

:

00:49:49,769 --> 00:49:53,849

Then I got into baseball and, and

you watch certain like drills and how

:

00:49:53,849 --> 00:49:55,379

they happen that are very predictable.

:

00:49:55,379 --> 00:49:58,469

Probably the one that everyone picks

on is, is batting practice, right?

:

00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:02,549

Where we throw 55 mile per hour fastballs

down the center and then they go into

:

00:50:02,549 --> 00:50:04,709

a game and they're basing 95 plus.

:

00:50:04,759 --> 00:50:08,289

And so when I would early on ask people

about this drill, you know, they mentioned

:

00:50:08,289 --> 00:50:09,669

like, oh, it's a confidence build.

:

00:50:09,669 --> 00:50:12,929

Or I'd watch players hit home, run

after home run and feel great about

:

00:50:12,929 --> 00:50:14,579

this as they prepared for a game.

:

00:50:15,569 --> 00:50:19,499

And it was one of the early places

where when I would talk to people about

:

00:50:19,499 --> 00:50:22,289

baseball, they would say, Ceci, you

don't understand the amount of failure

:

00:50:22,289 --> 00:50:23,639

they're gonna face at seven o'clock.

:

00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:27,179

And so we need to make sure

that they feel good going in.

:

00:50:27,659 --> 00:50:31,987

And that was so counter to if we send

guys overseas in the military and we've

:

00:50:31,987 --> 00:50:35,407

kept 'em comfortable the whole time during

training, like to me, we're, we're asking

:

00:50:35,407 --> 00:50:38,917

for catastrophic failure, PTSD and any

other negative thing you can imagine, like

:

00:50:39,097 --> 00:50:41,257

we need them to be exposed to hard things.

:

00:50:41,767 --> 00:50:45,667

Um, but baseball has like such

high superstition rates, right?

:

00:50:45,667 --> 00:50:48,847

Like there's so much aCeciepted

culture around like, feel

:

00:50:48,847 --> 00:50:50,107

good, look good, feel good.

:

00:50:50,107 --> 00:50:54,337

You know, this, this, and

it, it ran so counter.

:

00:50:54,337 --> 00:50:57,847

So I was trying to find language for a

long time to talk about the fact that

:

00:50:57,847 --> 00:50:59,437

there's different types of confidence.

:

00:50:59,467 --> 00:51:02,257

And so we landed kind of on this

concept of like a healthy confidence

:

00:51:02,257 --> 00:51:03,607

and a junk food confidence.

:

00:51:03,997 --> 00:51:06,292

And the idea that you could

be filled up by both, right?

:

00:51:06,292 --> 00:51:09,262

Someone could be high confidence

eating all junk food, right?

:

00:51:09,262 --> 00:51:12,232

Like, I can eat a bowl of candy and I will

be full, but what does it feel like to

:

00:51:12,232 --> 00:51:14,272

actually try to run on that bowl of candy?

:

00:51:14,602 --> 00:51:16,852

You're gonna get a sugar high,

you're gonna get a sugar low.

:

00:51:16,852 --> 00:51:19,852

It's gonna feel really gross if you're

challenged for a long period of time.

:

00:51:20,122 --> 00:51:23,043

Like, yes, you're full, but

it's not good fuel to burn.

:

00:51:23,523 --> 00:51:25,743

And then this concept of

healthy confidence and like,

:

00:51:25,743 --> 00:51:26,943

what does that look like?

:

00:51:27,083 --> 00:51:28,208

And it's A healthier diet.

:

00:51:28,208 --> 00:51:29,888

So it's, it's not as exciting, right?

:

00:51:29,888 --> 00:51:31,698

Like eating like a pretty lean

chicken breast and broccoli.

:

00:51:31,898 --> 00:51:33,788

But when you're running on

it, it may actually give you

:

00:51:33,788 --> 00:51:35,198

the fuel, fuel to run longer.

:

00:51:35,418 --> 00:51:40,960

And so how do we make it interesting

to build confidence off of obstacles

:

00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,740

and challenges and the faith that you

grow and adapt and can overcome hard

:

00:51:44,740 --> 00:51:49,690

stuff as a player and that you have

faced challenges in practice and that

:

00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:56,290

you have trained in a way that's highly

difficult versus this confidence built

:

00:51:56,290 --> 00:52:01,660

on, oh, I hit 10 home runs during

batting practice today, I'm ready to go.

:

00:52:01,660 --> 00:52:04,780

Because what I was watching is people

that were doing a lot of kind of this

:

00:52:04,780 --> 00:52:07,690

junk food style stuff would hit the

game and they would just collapse.

:

00:52:07,690 --> 00:52:07,750

Yeah.

:

00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,870

So the first time they faced

failure, they had nowhere to go.

:

00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,650

Whereas these people that maybe even

had lower rates of confidence, but

:

00:52:14,650 --> 00:52:17,590

it was built on this healthier stuff,

you'd watch 'em stay in the fight.

:

00:52:17,590 --> 00:52:19,330

They'd be gritty, they'd be persistent.

:

00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:20,170

They'd kept going.

:

00:52:20,290 --> 00:52:23,980

And so I think where I got really

into that is also like, how

:

00:52:23,980 --> 00:52:25,480

do cultures build confidence?

:

00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,240

And what are we applauding

and like, what happens when we

:

00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:29,790

reach tension and frustration?

:

00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,975

As coaches and instructors,

we sometimes try to get people

:

00:52:34,065 --> 00:52:36,225

out of frustration and tension.

:

00:52:36,375 --> 00:52:37,365

We'll try to alleviate it.

:

00:52:37,395 --> 00:52:38,895

Oh, you don't need to do another rep.

:

00:52:38,955 --> 00:52:40,935

Like, take a breather, take a moment.

:

00:52:42,015 --> 00:52:42,585

Well, no.

:

00:52:42,675 --> 00:52:44,865

Like, let them work through

their tension and frustration.

:

00:52:44,865 --> 00:52:45,885

Let them be in this spot.

:

00:52:45,885 --> 00:52:46,155

Yes.

:

00:52:46,155 --> 00:52:48,585

You found a challenge point where

they can't quite do this skill yet.

:

00:52:48,885 --> 00:52:52,455

Let them sit there, see if they can

get themselves there and, and notice

:

00:52:52,455 --> 00:52:53,655

the effort and applaud the effort.

:

00:52:53,985 --> 00:52:55,845

And maybe they get the

outcome and maybe they don't.

:

00:52:56,580 --> 00:53:00,990

But I think it's, it's those two

different types of confidence

:

00:53:01,380 --> 00:53:04,350

play out really different when

they face obstacle and challenge.

:

00:53:05,220 --> 00:53:09,420

And it's very hard to culturally

build the healthy stuff because

:

00:53:09,450 --> 00:53:15,930

the rewards along the way are less

flashy than the sugar-based stuff.

:

00:53:16,410 --> 00:53:16,590

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:19,145

Ceci: But you end up with a really

different type of performer and human.

:

00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:21,490

Preston: Somebody asked me

recently, you know, Preston, you've

:

00:53:21,490 --> 00:53:22,420

seen a lot of selections now.

:

00:53:22,420 --> 00:53:24,580

What's the thing that you're

now sort of fixated on?

:

00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:28,330

And I said, you know, at this level,

at the elite level, we're no longer

:

00:53:28,330 --> 00:53:29,740

really talking about performance.

:

00:53:29,740 --> 00:53:31,180

It's kind of the price of admission.

:

00:53:31,420 --> 00:53:33,220

You've gotta be pretty amazing to get in.

:

00:53:33,370 --> 00:53:35,950

And so I became fixated on recovery.

:

00:53:36,190 --> 00:53:38,500

How does this person

recover from the bad day?

:

00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:39,830

What is their behaviors?

:

00:53:39,860 --> 00:53:41,060

What are they doing with the team?

:

00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:45,380

And watching that behavior for

me has become a strong indicator

:

00:53:45,710 --> 00:53:47,450

of, of how they're gonna do.

:

00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:51,135

And it's also become a thing which

I think we can absolutely teach and

:

00:53:51,135 --> 00:53:52,620

we should do a better job teaching.

:

00:53:52,830 --> 00:53:56,550

And so I think a lot about this

idea of part of confidence.

:

00:53:56,550 --> 00:53:58,830

Part of what I'm hearing from

you is, Hey man, like, let's go

:

00:53:58,830 --> 00:53:59,790

out there and have a great day.

:

00:53:59,790 --> 00:54:03,695

But if it doesn't work out,

you're still in the game, right?

:

00:54:03,695 --> 00:54:06,965

Like, you need to actually stay,

you keep your head in the game.

:

00:54:07,115 --> 00:54:07,415

Yes.

:

00:54:07,415 --> 00:54:10,475

You just publicly failed and

a million people watched you.

:

00:54:10,685 --> 00:54:11,015

Yep.

:

00:54:11,135 --> 00:54:12,725

You need to let that go and

move on to the next thing.

:

00:54:12,725 --> 00:54:13,055

Right.

:

00:54:13,115 --> 00:54:13,985

Like goldfish.

:

00:54:14,295 --> 00:54:14,805

Ceci: Yeah.

:

00:54:14,805 --> 00:54:17,905

I would watch some baseball drills

where like a ball get past an infielder

:

00:54:17,905 --> 00:54:20,895

in practice and, and they just leave

the ball and I'd be like, no, tell 'em

:

00:54:20,895 --> 00:54:22,400

to go get that thing and throw it in.

:

00:54:22,430 --> 00:54:24,190

Like this is not where a

play stops in the game.

:

00:54:24,195 --> 00:54:24,315

Yeah.

:

00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:25,510

Like, don't practice that way.

:

00:54:25,790 --> 00:54:28,910

When I hear you say recovery,

I'm curious too, are you talking

:

00:54:28,910 --> 00:54:32,690

recovery and reset and reengage

or are you just talking recovery?

:

00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:33,950

Preston: Sorry, real quick.

:

00:54:34,050 --> 00:54:37,691

Just, how About you explicate those three

just so that we can let the audience in?

:

00:54:38,191 --> 00:54:41,361

Ceci: If I think about recovery for like

our guys, I'm thinking what do they do

:

00:54:41,541 --> 00:54:42,809

from a muscular standpoint to like...

:

00:54:42,809 --> 00:54:42,899

yep.

:

00:54:42,949 --> 00:54:45,289

Recover their bodies

sleep wise, eating wise.

:

00:54:45,289 --> 00:54:48,139

Like what do they doing

to recover after output?

:

00:54:48,599 --> 00:54:51,719

To me then there's also sometimes

an aspect of like, okay, then what

:

00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,719

happens when they need to either

reset or reengage within the moment.

:

00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,549

So I guess I'm not making

a huge differentiation

:

00:54:56,549 --> 00:54:57,799

between reset and reengage.

:

00:54:57,965 --> 00:55:01,475

Some of my athletes, they don't think

do a great job of like recovery,

:

00:55:01,475 --> 00:55:03,335

but boy can they reengage and reset.

:

00:55:03,365 --> 00:55:05,765

Now at some point, would I like

them to build in better recovery

:

00:55:05,765 --> 00:55:07,745

so they have more to reengage with?

:

00:55:08,015 --> 00:55:08,135

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:55:08,165 --> 00:55:08,795

Ceci: Yes.

:

00:55:08,945 --> 00:55:12,725

But I've become fascinated with

who can reengage post failure.

:

00:55:13,085 --> 00:55:14,005

Preston: So it's interesting.

:

00:55:14,005 --> 00:55:16,904

I'm glad you separated those

two because it's actually both.

:

00:55:16,904 --> 00:55:21,314

So we've now started designing selections

for teams where after they do high

:

00:55:21,314 --> 00:55:24,284

physical output, we call that a red band.

:

00:55:24,644 --> 00:55:26,804

Immediately after that

there's a green band.

:

00:55:26,864 --> 00:55:30,824

And that green band, the first time in

selection we bring in O2X or somebody

:

00:55:30,824 --> 00:55:32,234

and they'll teach the green band.

:

00:55:32,264 --> 00:55:34,454

This is how you will physically recover.

:

00:55:34,634 --> 00:55:36,854

Fuel, hydration, stretching, whatever.

:

00:55:37,274 --> 00:55:37,814

Then.

:

00:55:38,154 --> 00:55:41,334

Every time in the selection where there's

a red band, there's gonna be a green

:

00:55:41,334 --> 00:55:42,984

band, but we're not gonna do it for you.

:

00:55:43,254 --> 00:55:48,324

We're gonna observe you recovering to

see how much you look after yourself

:

00:55:48,384 --> 00:55:50,034

and you will be assessed on that.

:

00:55:50,184 --> 00:55:53,694

And at the end of it, if you don't

use that time effectively, you'll be

:

00:55:53,694 --> 00:55:57,564

graded poorly for that because you

won't sustain yourself on the teams.

:

00:55:57,744 --> 00:56:02,094

So culturally and tactically, we're

setting that up as an expectation.

:

00:56:02,274 --> 00:56:06,594

And that's separate from multiple

rounds, say in CQB, for an example,

:

00:56:06,774 --> 00:56:11,604

where they blow it, they get feedback,

how they're able to reset, the DR5, we

:

00:56:11,604 --> 00:56:15,894

talk about this a lot, how they're able

to reset and get back and reengage.

:

00:56:16,164 --> 00:56:19,074

But I actually see those

two things related.

:

00:56:19,364 --> 00:56:25,724

And how well they, as humans are aware

of their presence within a team and

:

00:56:25,724 --> 00:56:30,234

their responsibilities as an actor in

that team to keep themselves in the

:

00:56:30,234 --> 00:56:33,654

game, both physically and mentally

for the short term and the long term.

:

00:56:33,974 --> 00:56:35,725

So , it's Two sides of the same coin.

:

00:56:36,075 --> 00:56:39,585

Ceci: It's interesting to me how often

I work with high performers when, when

:

00:56:39,585 --> 00:56:43,155

you look at how much they actually

value themselves, they don't, yeah.

:

00:56:43,155 --> 00:56:46,035

They value their ability to perform

and how their identity is tied to that.

:

00:56:46,035 --> 00:56:50,515

But actual value of self things they

do for themselves, to, to continue

:

00:56:50,515 --> 00:56:54,175

themselves or, or, or benefit

themselves, they're not great at.

:

00:56:54,335 --> 00:56:56,885

And I think some of that's interesting

from a team orientation standpoint,

:

00:56:57,055 --> 00:56:58,650

but I like that you're putting that in.

:

00:56:58,700 --> 00:57:01,560

You're bringing some really great

ideas for me thinking about training.

:

00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:06,490

I think I probably separated out like

those that understand how to recover.

:

00:57:06,650 --> 00:57:09,200

And sometimes we've learned to talk

about recovery is actually like

:

00:57:09,620 --> 00:57:11,420

your challenge is not pushing hard.

:

00:57:11,810 --> 00:57:15,050

Like what's hard for you is actually

to create the space for you to recover.

:

00:57:15,050 --> 00:57:15,110

Yeah.

:

00:57:15,140 --> 00:57:17,240

Like, that's actually

mentally more difficult.

:

00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,360

Like the mentally toughest

thing you could do is recover.

:

00:57:21,275 --> 00:57:24,275

And I think sometimes that's rewriting

it because recovery is what you

:

00:57:24,275 --> 00:57:25,265

do when you're selfish, right?

:

00:57:25,265 --> 00:57:28,059

Now, a lot of those guys do know

how to reengage, but to your point,

:

00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:30,489

they'll reengage the point of

exhaustion and extreme burnout or

:

00:57:30,489 --> 00:57:32,359

extreme fatigue or to point of failure.

:

00:57:32,629 --> 00:57:33,799

And then they have nothing to give.

:

00:57:33,799 --> 00:57:36,709

So I like that, and I

like the combination.

:

00:57:36,709 --> 00:57:40,729

And I think actually that's probably a

skill we could combine and coach better.

:

00:57:40,729 --> 00:57:44,589

Preston: So one of my go-to resets

now, with young players, men or women

:

00:57:44,739 --> 00:57:48,579

at the elite level, if they're having

trouble resetting and reengaging and I

:

00:57:48,579 --> 00:57:51,969

happen to be there, one of the things

that I will say to them, and this,

:

00:57:51,969 --> 00:57:54,069

I'm talking about instructor cadre

now, 'cause that's who I work with.

:

00:57:54,069 --> 00:57:54,999

I don't work with players.

:

00:57:55,149 --> 00:57:58,536

I work with instructor cadre and, if

we're practicing how to teach something

:

00:57:58,536 --> 00:58:02,916

and they screw up and they're stuck

in their head, I will walk up to them.

:

00:58:02,916 --> 00:58:05,526

Remember, all these people

that I'm working with are

:

00:58:05,526 --> 00:58:06,906

coming from a service mindset.

:

00:58:06,906 --> 00:58:08,676

They're in service to

something greater themselves.

:

00:58:08,886 --> 00:58:12,426

So they have this huge belief in

sacrifice, self-sacrifice in service

:

00:58:12,426 --> 00:58:14,196

to the team that's core to them.

:

00:58:14,406 --> 00:58:16,566

So I actually use moral

injury against them.

:

00:58:16,836 --> 00:58:19,866

So what I will do is I'll walk in

when I see them caught in their

:

00:58:19,866 --> 00:58:21,876

head and I'll say, "Hey, why are

you being so selfish right now?"

:

00:58:22,601 --> 00:58:26,561

And that to them, they have a huge

moral allergic reaction to this because

:

00:58:26,561 --> 00:58:28,181

that's a very offensive thing to say.

:

00:58:28,361 --> 00:58:29,231

And they're like, what do you mean?

:

00:58:29,381 --> 00:58:32,771

And I was like, by you

fixating on that last screw up,

:

00:58:32,831 --> 00:58:34,211

you're not helping the team.

:

00:58:34,211 --> 00:58:36,641

You're not fixated on the team,

you're not supporting the team.

:

00:58:36,821 --> 00:58:38,711

You're focused on your own little drama.

:

00:58:38,771 --> 00:58:40,121

And that's super selfish.

:

00:58:40,541 --> 00:58:42,281

Learn from it and move the fuck on.

:

00:58:42,331 --> 00:58:43,591

This is incredibly selfish.

:

00:58:43,651 --> 00:58:47,791

And that puts them in this really

interesting cognitive emotional

:

00:58:47,791 --> 00:58:49,981

tension, this existential tension.

:

00:58:49,981 --> 00:58:54,031

Because on the one hand, they

believe that the self flagellation

:

00:58:54,181 --> 00:58:55,921

is in service to something.

:

00:58:56,231 --> 00:59:00,671

And by turning it around now, I flipped

the script on 'em, and now they're stuck.

:

00:59:00,731 --> 00:59:04,361

And for some of them, that's

all they need to go, oh, got it.

:

00:59:04,361 --> 00:59:07,601

Now I know where to place

that in my identity, and now I

:

00:59:07,601 --> 00:59:08,886

can do this and move forward.

:

00:59:10,406 --> 00:59:12,176

Ceci: You know, it's really

interesting to hear you say that

:

00:59:12,176 --> 00:59:14,966

'cause we've come to realize like,

more information is not better.

:

00:59:15,086 --> 00:59:18,354

So, with iPads and dugouts, you'll find

guys that go back and they look at the

:

00:59:18,354 --> 00:59:21,444

iPad in front of them to watch their last

at bat to figure out what to do better.

:

00:59:21,504 --> 00:59:23,154

What they're not doing

is watching the game.

:

00:59:23,154 --> 00:59:25,704

They're not watching the next hitter step

up and how, what they're doing with the

:

00:59:25,704 --> 00:59:28,584

pitcher, and they're not watching the

pitcher to see what the pitcher throws.

:

00:59:28,734 --> 00:59:32,424

And so they're spinning in their

own cycle of what has occurred and

:

00:59:32,424 --> 00:59:35,484

they're not continuing to learn about

what is occuring in front of them.

:

00:59:35,784 --> 00:59:38,034

And where we find guys do a

lot better is when we say,

:

00:59:38,034 --> 00:59:39,294

"Hey, go get on that top rope.

:

00:59:39,294 --> 00:59:40,394

Go get on that top step".

:

00:59:40,514 --> 00:59:42,027

They recover, they get into the team.

:

00:59:42,027 --> 00:59:43,857

They do know how to be part of a team.

:

00:59:43,947 --> 00:59:46,467

They just have lost that with more

technology and more information.

:

00:59:46,517 --> 00:59:49,170

Or we'll see the guys that

love all the information.

:

00:59:49,450 --> 00:59:50,752

They'll be throwing a bullpen, right?

:

00:59:50,752 --> 00:59:51,652

Practicing pitching.

:

00:59:51,802 --> 00:59:54,302

And they'll be asking for the data

because we can pull it, right?

:

00:59:54,302 --> 00:59:54,992

Where was that pitch?

:

00:59:54,992 --> 00:59:56,012

What was the spin rate?

:

00:59:56,292 --> 00:59:57,822

How big was the movement on that?

:

00:59:58,797 --> 01:00:00,687

More information is

not necessarily better.

:

01:00:00,747 --> 01:00:04,807

And sometimes it's teaching you

not to listen to yourself or you're

:

01:00:04,807 --> 01:00:06,157

losing your own self-awareness, right?

:

01:00:06,157 --> 01:00:08,947

The data starts to become your

awareness tool instead of you.

:

01:00:09,247 --> 01:00:09,367

Preston: Yeah,

:

01:00:09,372 --> 01:00:12,417

Ceci: And I think that that's a

really interesting spot too, is

:

01:00:12,767 --> 01:00:14,477

where is the information serving you?

:

01:00:14,837 --> 01:00:15,167

Preston: Yeah.

:

01:00:15,277 --> 01:00:18,785

Ceci: where is It just building

comfort, not necessarily improvement.

:

01:00:18,835 --> 01:00:21,162

I love, how do you get back

to the team to move forward?

:

01:00:21,372 --> 01:00:21,822

Preston: That's right.

:

01:00:22,032 --> 01:00:24,552

And so this actually brings us to

sort of the final point I wanted

:

01:00:24,552 --> 01:00:26,280

to make, the idea of transition.

:

01:00:26,780 --> 01:00:29,510

Michael Phelps had that documentary,

the Weight of Gold, right?

:

01:00:29,690 --> 01:00:33,350

And it's this this phenomenon that's

well studied about what happens to

:

01:00:33,350 --> 01:00:37,220

Olympic athletes regardless of how they

perform, whether it's gold or nothing.

:

01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,610

And when they come back after four

years of pursuing a thing and the thing

:

01:00:40,610 --> 01:00:44,810

is over and what happens to them, and

this is a very similar phenomenon to

:

01:00:44,810 --> 01:00:46,760

folks who come back from war, right?

:

01:00:46,970 --> 01:00:50,960

That the thing they trained for is now

over and they hadn't actually given

:

01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,760

any thought to what happens afterwards.

:

01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,450

And I imagine in professional sports,

whether they're coming from the

:

01:00:56,450 --> 01:00:59,720

minors to the majors or the majors

to the minors, or leaving, that these

:

01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,800

periods of transition of where they

had been working towards a thing and

:

01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,855

now that thing is gone, injuries, for

example, that's gotta be catastrophic.

:

01:01:07,855 --> 01:01:10,760

And I don't know, how you guys

are sort of thinking about that.

:

01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,570

Ceci: One of the things that kind of

gets me from time to time is people near

:

01:01:14,570 --> 01:01:18,110

the end of their career or that have

left will say things like, you can't

:

01:01:18,110 --> 01:01:20,030

tie your identity to your performance.

:

01:01:20,030 --> 01:01:23,750

I think the problem that people forget

is early on to become a high performer,

:

01:01:23,990 --> 01:01:26,810

you may well have done that, and that

may have actually been in a, like

:

01:01:26,810 --> 01:01:28,790

an entry ticket to your community.

:

01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,180

So if a young special ops soldier

says, Hey, I need to be home by five

:

01:01:32,180 --> 01:01:35,360

to have dinner with my family because

my wife and my kids really matter, he's

:

01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,000

not staying on that team very long.

:

01:01:37,107 --> 01:01:40,017

there's a piece where if you're not

living and breathing what you're trying

:

01:01:40,017 --> 01:01:44,547

to do and making abnormal sacrifices,

you don't get to do it at a high level.

:

01:01:44,667 --> 01:01:47,667

And so some of what you're talking

about that gets created over time

:

01:01:47,847 --> 01:01:53,517

is identity tied to job performance,

the accolades, whatever you've done.

:

01:01:53,907 --> 01:01:57,567

It feels unfair to me when

people at the end or after say

:

01:01:57,567 --> 01:01:59,037

like, oh, that shouldn't happen.

:

01:01:59,217 --> 01:02:01,767

I understand why they're saying

it, but I think they forget

:

01:02:01,767 --> 01:02:03,057

that that's really not real.

:

01:02:03,357 --> 01:02:03,507

Preston: Yeah.

:

01:02:03,807 --> 01:02:07,004

Ceci: Now I do think there's a piece near

the end where we've gotta find a way to

:

01:02:07,004 --> 01:02:08,804

talk about transition and what it is.

:

01:02:09,134 --> 01:02:12,074

And I, I think what's interesting in

a lot of these communities is people

:

01:02:12,074 --> 01:02:13,484

are like, oh, I'm getting away, right?

:

01:02:13,484 --> 01:02:14,894

Like, I'm getting away

from the Fort Bragg area.

:

01:02:14,894 --> 01:02:16,364

I'm not gonna do anything

with the military.

:

01:02:16,574 --> 01:02:19,987

And I think they fail to realize

how much of a strange population and

:

01:02:19,987 --> 01:02:23,167

community they've been part of, and

how weird it's gonna feel when they

:

01:02:23,167 --> 01:02:27,157

get away from that community and what

they're gonna miss and seek about it.

:

01:02:27,217 --> 01:02:30,821

I think developing language around that,

and some sense of normalcy, and I don't

:

01:02:30,821 --> 01:02:35,510

know if normalcy is really the word I

wanna use, but talking about it, explicit

:

01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:39,950

conversation about this is what's common

for people from this community in this

:

01:02:39,950 --> 01:02:42,080

space, I think is really important.

:

01:02:42,340 --> 01:02:46,990

Because that may, they may say, that's

not gonna be true for me in that moment.

:

01:02:47,050 --> 01:02:49,630

I can't tell you how many people

I've had get in touch two or three

:

01:02:49,630 --> 01:02:50,530

years later and be like, of course.

:

01:02:50,530 --> 01:02:51,380

Oh, yep, yep.

:

01:02:51,380 --> 01:02:54,925

You don't know when that conversation is

gonna resonate or when it's gonna hit.

:

01:02:55,425 --> 01:02:58,577

I just Was at a coffee shop yesterday

talking to a friend who's did some

:

01:02:58,577 --> 01:03:01,917

consulting work for us about diaphragmatic

breathing, . And a soldier walked

:

01:03:01,917 --> 01:03:05,397

in that, a prior soldier that I had

not seen in maybe seven years, and

:

01:03:05,397 --> 01:03:07,767

like came in, spilled his life story.

:

01:03:07,767 --> 01:03:09,831

He's probably been out of

the military, 10 years.

:

01:03:09,961 --> 01:03:11,731

And he's just figuring out the transition.

:

01:03:11,821 --> 01:03:16,081

And he was talking about people from the

community that have set up phenomenal

:

01:03:16,081 --> 01:03:20,031

programs, that did resonate with him,

but how much he realized it had to come

:

01:03:20,031 --> 01:03:24,981

from his culture, his community, and

how much he valued the understanding

:

01:03:24,981 --> 01:03:26,721

and how much he didn't have to explain.

:

01:03:27,171 --> 01:03:30,951

And he also talked about how long it took

him within the therapy that he's doing to

:

01:03:30,951 --> 01:03:32,931

create understanding from the therapist.

:

01:03:33,341 --> 01:03:37,598

I think Baseball players go

through a version of that.

:

01:03:37,772 --> 01:03:41,152

I think it's really important that

we talk about what that space is.

:

01:03:41,152 --> 01:03:43,132

We talk about that as a real transition.

:

01:03:43,132 --> 01:03:45,082

We talk about the things

that can go along with it.

:

01:03:45,112 --> 01:03:47,372

We talk about the resources

that exist for that.

:

01:03:47,452 --> 01:03:51,250

I tell all my performers, coaches,

athletes, front office, if you call,

:

01:03:51,250 --> 01:03:52,690

I will never not pick up the phone.

:

01:03:52,990 --> 01:03:53,320

Preston: Right.

:

01:03:53,740 --> 01:03:55,720

Ceci: I don't care if you

go play for our rival club.

:

01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:57,460

I will pick up the phone when you call.

:

01:03:57,910 --> 01:04:00,790

Now, I may try to transition you

to something more appropriate than

:

01:04:00,790 --> 01:04:05,530

me, but, but I will never not pick

up the phone because what you're

:

01:04:05,530 --> 01:04:07,420

working through is also rather unique.

:

01:04:07,450 --> 01:04:11,020

And I think it's important that we really

pay attention to what resources match

:

01:04:11,020 --> 01:04:14,620

that community and have understanding

from the culture and context with it,

:

01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,300

from which they're trying to transition.

:

01:04:16,675 --> 01:04:19,569

Preston: Yeah, I talk to obviously

a lot of folks at the highest teams

:

01:04:19,569 --> 01:04:23,229

that transition out, and the things

that seem to really be the challenge

:

01:04:23,229 --> 01:04:28,239

is they move one day from having a

tribe to being significant, to being

:

01:04:28,239 --> 01:04:30,909

dangerous, to being in the know, right?

:

01:04:31,119 --> 01:04:32,349

To the next day, none of that.

:

01:04:32,349 --> 01:04:36,574

And it's all evaporates in a

way that's very unsettling.

:

01:04:36,964 --> 01:04:39,814

And you try to explain it, but

it's not an intellectual problem.

:

01:04:39,814 --> 01:04:41,854

It's an emotional

existential identity problem.

:

01:04:42,154 --> 01:04:44,644

And it takes a time, it takes a process.

:

01:04:44,854 --> 01:04:47,554

So anyone who's listening, you're

like, well, what's the shortcut?

:

01:04:47,554 --> 01:04:49,714

And here's the shortcut that

I've seen work more often

:

01:04:49,714 --> 01:04:51,274

than not go back to school.

:

01:04:51,544 --> 01:04:55,234

And the reason I say that is because

it, it's a very soft landing.

:

01:04:55,534 --> 01:04:58,054

You get some time to figure

out who these civilians are.

:

01:04:58,084 --> 01:05:01,444

You get in debates with 'em that are

very constructive and constrained.

:

01:05:01,724 --> 01:05:04,754

You get some time on somebody

else's calendar and schedule

:

01:05:04,754 --> 01:05:05,834

that has some structure.

:

01:05:06,044 --> 01:05:07,724

There's a purpose and a mission to it.

:

01:05:07,724 --> 01:05:08,069

You're learning.

:

01:05:08,699 --> 01:05:11,489

Which builds in some humility 'cause

you, you have to be a beginner's mind

:

01:05:11,489 --> 01:05:13,379

again, there's a lot that comes with it.

:

01:05:13,379 --> 01:05:17,379

And so as, as an early cheat code, it

doesn't solve all problems for everything.

:

01:05:17,379 --> 01:05:21,159

And by the way, I'm not talking

about an MBA, go back to

:

01:05:21,159 --> 01:05:23,439

become like an an HVAC guy.

:

01:05:23,439 --> 01:05:24,699

It doesn't matter to me.

:

01:05:24,879 --> 01:05:27,819

It's being in an environment

that's low stakes.

:

01:05:28,089 --> 01:05:33,259

The folks that try to come out and run a

startup is often very challenging, because

:

01:05:33,259 --> 01:05:36,288

they don't know how to shift gears and

make meaning of that new environment.

:

01:05:36,469 --> 01:05:38,989

And all the old rules they

have don't necessarily apply.

:

01:05:39,779 --> 01:05:42,749

Ceci: I think you have to respect the fact

that you're walking out of a very niche

:

01:05:42,749 --> 01:05:44,579

or very like, specialized population.

:

01:05:44,579 --> 01:05:47,459

And I think it's shocking when you

walk outta that population where the

:

01:05:47,459 --> 01:05:49,409

rest of the world is or has been.

:

01:05:49,759 --> 01:05:52,294

And I Don't think the guys give

themselves enough credit, right?

:

01:05:52,294 --> 01:05:53,894

You hear like, well, I'm

just a knuckle dragger.

:

01:05:53,894 --> 01:05:56,258

And then they don't understand

why the rest of the world isn't

:

01:05:56,258 --> 01:05:57,548

making a whole lot of sense.

:

01:05:57,758 --> 01:06:01,618

And I think you need to value how

specialized you've made yourself.

:

01:06:02,898 --> 01:06:08,448

Therefore when you step out of your

community, your tribe, you are gonna feel

:

01:06:08,448 --> 01:06:12,448

like you're, yeah, you're joining a whole

different culture, a different community.

:

01:06:12,628 --> 01:06:15,072

And then the other thing you hit at

was find yourself someplace where

:

01:06:15,072 --> 01:06:16,812

there's some space, but with a purpose.

:

01:06:16,812 --> 01:06:16,872

Yeah.

:

01:06:17,062 --> 01:06:19,372

The guys that like retire and they're

like, I just wanna do nothing.

:

01:06:20,122 --> 01:06:22,582

My God, you've been purpose-driven

for a very long time with

:

01:06:22,582 --> 01:06:25,072

something much larger than yourself

that isn't gonna work so well.

:

01:06:25,072 --> 01:06:27,773

So you need to have something to

do, but you also have to have enough

:

01:06:27,773 --> 01:06:29,883

space to like process and reflect.

:

01:06:30,133 --> 01:06:33,419

Going into the next thing that

demands everything of you, doesn't

:

01:06:33,419 --> 01:06:35,969

provide you much space to digest

what you've just been through.

:

01:06:36,019 --> 01:06:38,854

Preston: So as we close this out,

I'm in a moment but not yet gonna

:

01:06:38,854 --> 01:06:41,861

ask you what people can think about

doing differently Monday, whether

:

01:06:41,861 --> 01:06:44,531

you're in human performance or

working with human performance, right?

:

01:06:44,651 --> 01:06:46,571

And I just wanna thank

you for this conversation.

:

01:06:46,571 --> 01:06:47,621

It's been extraordinary.

:

01:06:47,621 --> 01:06:51,706

I think your background, being able

to bridge both special operations and

:

01:06:51,706 --> 01:06:56,348

sports brings a lot of understanding to

the nuances, because you've been doing

:

01:06:56,348 --> 01:06:59,928

it for a while, you can articulate what

things are actually really important that

:

01:06:59,928 --> 01:07:03,172

people should be doing, and then also,

where we may be overstepping and where we

:

01:07:03,172 --> 01:07:06,650

may need to be a little more humble when

it comes to the development of humans.

:

01:07:06,890 --> 01:07:10,600

And so with that in mind, is there

advice you give to folks that they

:

01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,130

might think about just on Monday?

:

01:07:12,185 --> 01:07:15,952

Ceci: You know, I think the largest

tool within high performing populations

:

01:07:15,982 --> 01:07:20,902

is your own self-awareness and taking

the time to capture really who you are

:

01:07:20,902 --> 01:07:23,002

and how you function and valuing that.

:

01:07:23,032 --> 01:07:26,392

And to this conversation, whether it's

about how you train for a big event,

:

01:07:26,422 --> 01:07:32,092

or how you recover or how you reengage,

you're gonna have a style that is fairly

:

01:07:32,092 --> 01:07:37,492

uniquely you, that may or may not map to

like normal or all those other around you.

:

01:07:37,492 --> 01:07:40,822

And the more you know that,

the more you can leverage it.

:

01:07:40,882 --> 01:07:43,612

And to me, the higher level

you can perform or recover.

:

01:07:44,182 --> 01:07:47,092

Or understand how you disengage

with work and reengage with

:

01:07:47,092 --> 01:07:48,352

family or whatever that is.

:

01:07:48,562 --> 01:07:51,742

Getting to know yourself is probably

one of the most dynamic and powerful

:

01:07:51,742 --> 01:07:53,721

things that you can, you can do.

:

01:07:53,882 --> 01:07:56,762

I would say if you've got a great

mental performance coach or program

:

01:07:56,762 --> 01:08:00,782

around you, they should be looking at

that too and helping you notice those

:

01:08:00,782 --> 01:08:02,642

things and coaching appropriately.

:

01:08:03,092 --> 01:08:06,242

Canned programs to me do not

work well in high performance.

:

01:08:06,372 --> 01:08:09,432

There's some foundational stuff we

can do in our field that's probably

:

01:08:09,432 --> 01:08:12,772

good for most things and most people,

but when you're starting to get to

:

01:08:12,772 --> 01:08:16,822

higher levels or to tailor to people,

it should never be a canned process.

:

01:08:16,971 --> 01:08:20,432

And so value yourself and

what makes you unique and what

:

01:08:20,432 --> 01:08:21,932

makes you a high performer.

:

01:08:22,412 --> 01:08:25,471

And, and don't settle for

coaching that doesn't.

:

01:08:25,471 --> 01:08:30,272

Honor that in some way, or challenge

you right, in some way, because I think

:

01:08:30,272 --> 01:08:34,322

those are essential things for high

performers is, is to be challenged,

:

01:08:34,322 --> 01:08:37,672

to continue to grow, recognizing

your strengths and weaknesses and

:

01:08:37,672 --> 01:08:39,142

how you're gonna leverage those.

:

01:08:39,362 --> 01:08:42,182

I just think you've done a lot of

good podcasts here, Preston, and I was

:

01:08:42,182 --> 01:08:45,332

listening to The Profile of an Operator

and some of the different pieces there.

:

01:08:45,332 --> 01:08:47,822

And like, yeah, you're, you're different.

:

01:08:48,211 --> 01:08:49,682

You're, you're significantly different.

:

01:08:49,682 --> 01:08:52,412

It's not gonna look normal and,

and you're gonna get a lot of

:

01:08:52,412 --> 01:08:55,112

signs and signals that that's

uncomfortable for the world around you.

:

01:08:55,112 --> 01:08:56,102

And that's okay.

:

01:08:56,732 --> 01:08:58,381

Thank God you are different, you know?

:

01:08:58,381 --> 01:09:00,902

Because that's why you're doing what

you do, whether you're a fireman

:

01:09:00,952 --> 01:09:02,471

or a ranger or whatever else.

:

01:09:02,522 --> 01:09:06,152

And, again, I'll go back to like my

current vent on cultures and communities,

:

01:09:06,232 --> 01:09:09,591

the rules of your culture and community,

the principles, the standards, the

:

01:09:09,591 --> 01:09:15,202

leadership style, it should be built to

enable continued high performance, which

:

01:09:15,202 --> 01:09:16,792

means it's supporting some weird stuff.

:

01:09:17,242 --> 01:09:18,261

Preston: Yeah, a hundred percent.

:

01:09:18,591 --> 01:09:21,622

Well, Ceci, thank you so much for coming

and thank you for sharing your knowledge.

:

01:09:22,372 --> 01:09:23,542

Ceci: Thank you so much for having me.

:

01:09:23,542 --> 01:09:25,252

It's always a good challenge

to talk to you, Preston.

:

01:09:25,252 --> 01:09:26,782

I always feel like I learned so much.

:

01:09:27,082 --> 01:09:29,152

Preston: Thanks everybody and

we'll see you on the next Teamcast.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania