Episode 6

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Published on:

23rd Mar 2026

S6 E6 Paddy Steinfort, The Cognitive Coach (Recast)

This week’s Recast is from Oct 2021. The episode explores how high-pressure performers can train, maintain, and recover their mental skills, with emphasis on using the right tools in the right way and avoiding unqualified “backyard” approaches. Host Harry Moffitt speaks with performance psychologist and cognitive coach Paddy Steinfort, who has worked with elite sports teams like the Philadelphia Eagles, Blue Jays, and 76ers. Paddy draws on his personal athletic experience and his education in psychology to discuss how people can prepare for demanding environments, remain effective when pressure rises, and build sustainable habits over time.

Paddy and Harry examine how to place attention on the right cues, how to execute the right actions despite discomfort, and how routines can become superstition-driven avoidance. They also discuss how coaches and organizations can better support psychological performance. The two provide practical ways to manage ongoing stress, strengthen individual and group processes, and keep progressing toward long-term goals.

If you find value in this discussion, the best way to support our work and stay up to date on future episodes is to subscribe and leave us a quick rating or review. It helps us reach more people who need to hear these conversations.

Transcript
Preston:

Welcome to the Team Cast.

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I'm Dr.

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Preston Cline, director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

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Here we discuss all things

mission critical teams.

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These are teams of four to 12 people,

indigenously, trained and educated, who

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solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets where the consequence of

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failure is death or catastrophic loss.

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With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

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zones to emergency rooms dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

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and sustainability of these teams.

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We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

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language and frameworks to transfer

critical off and unspoken knowledge.

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Whether you're on a mission critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

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the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

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you to perform when it matters most.

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Thank you for joining us and

hope you enjoy the team cast.

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Harry: Good day.

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Welcome back to the Teamcast.

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My name's Harry Moffitt.

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Today we're gonna be talking about

cognitive or mental tools that we use

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to train, develop, prepare, maintain,

recover, or even rehabilitate our

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minds or our psychological selves.

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Psychology's a very broad term.

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It encapsulates perception, consciousness,

emotions and feelings, how we might

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feel our way through the world, and

thinking generally about ourselves,

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our physical and even social selves.

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It's mostly founded in our biology,

so some of the principles that we

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can apply to cognitive and mental

tools, training can be analogous to

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physical training, and we'll do that

a bit through our conversation today.

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So what are some of the

cognitive tools we can use?

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Depending on who you talk to,

there's a laundry list out there.

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We professionally trained psychologists

will lean into psychotherapy and talk

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therapy and use terms and techniques

such as reframing, visualization,

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rehearsal, anticipation, role play,

self-talk, goal setting, and problem

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solving tools, specific tools,

reflection routines, and even chunking

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practices or compartmentalization.

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They're all terms I'm sure many of you

have heard before, and of course, there

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are a myriad of self-help, books and

podcasts, those who borrow from the

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research, mostly for marketing purposes.

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But this is a good point to caution

around the use of mental tools and

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cognitive training or approaches.

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There's quite a difference in reading

the research and regurgitating it

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and actually applying the techniques.

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The key here is that the psychologists

who are trained to diagnose and

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deliver the right tool to the right

person for the desired outcome.

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And psychologists understand

the underlying principles behind

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why the techniques work or not.

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And importantly, they

also understand the traps.

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I think it's fair to say that when we

are delving into the mental or cognitive

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space of an individual, the downside can

be quite devastating if you get it wrong.

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So fair warning, be careful about

backyard psychology and how we

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apply these things and always refer

yourself to a trained professional.

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And today's MCTI guest is one

such trained professional.

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Paddy Steinford is not only a

psychologist in the performance

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space, but he's also lived it.

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He's a former elite

Australian rules footballer.

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He played for the Richmond Football Club.

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And now Paddy is a psychologist

and cognitive coach.

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He's worked with the Philadelphia

Eagles, the Blue Jays, 76ers, Red Sox.

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He's worked at the University

of Pennsylvania and Texas Tech,

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and he was recently appointed

the director of Performance

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Paddy: at

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Harry: Football Australia.

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I should also note he's worked

with some exceptional individuals

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as well, Patrick Mahomes, Ben

Simmons, and Vladimir Guerrero.

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I'm sure anyone who knows their US sports,

those names will well and truly resonate.

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You can actually check

out Paddy's own podcast.

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That's called Toughness.

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But today we are super stoked to have

him on the Teamcast and joining me to

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talk about all things cognitive coaching.

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Paddy, it's great to have you

back in Australia, mate, , what

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I wanna do is I want to pick

through everything you've done.

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But I wonder if you can just give

us a bit of a background where it

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all started for you and the journey

to where you find yourself now.

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Paddy: The journey in terms of all

the sports team stuff probably started

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when as a kid growing up in Melbourne

where footy was the be all, end all.

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It's kind of like the equivalent

of football in Texas where if you

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want to grow up and be an athlete,

that's the only choice you have

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or it's the main one, right?

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So that was a dream of mine as a teenager.

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I know that a lot of the audience

for your show is either military,

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ex-military, or first responders.

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My grandfather was in the military

and I used to watch the documentaries

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and imagine myself being a soldier.

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Being a football player ended up

being a little more of a lucrative

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career, so I went down that pathway.

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But I used to always try, without trying

to sound blasphemous, 'cause it's nothing

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like it, but trying to mentally prepare

myself for games of football as if it was

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a war and I was gonna throw my body in and

potentially hurt myself and take risks,

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not to the degree of military operators,

but it was, I think, an element of my

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psyche that came from my dad's side.

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If I was gonna take some of those risks

on the field, I had to mentally steal

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myself beforehand and work on getting

myself in the zone, which I was lucky

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enough at the age of 16 or 17, I reckon,

it was before I'd been drafted, at

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pre-season camp for one of the rep teams

of the area, we had a psychologist come

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in and we did a couple of things and

lo and behold, I went and played like

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the two best games of my life the next

two weeks and I was like, oh, maybe

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it's something to do with this stuff.

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So I dove right in and, and it became

a core part of my preparation, pretty

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much my entire time as an athlete.

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Probably to the point where

it was actually detrimental.

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I was like relying on it too

much, almost superstitious.

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Harry: Yeah.

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Paddy: It definitely was a core

part of my advantage as an athlete.

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I'm 6'6, but I'm not the fastest

guy getting around, and I wasn't

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the most built guy either.

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It was a lot to do with

anticipation, calculated risks.

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I was playing for those who know Aussie

rules or footy, I was playing in the

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ruck basically . I describe it as, we run

as much as a soccer team but we wrestle

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every 30 seconds and it's full contact.

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You can get hit from any direction.

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The physical demands were pretty

intense, and particularly in that

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position, I naturally was drawn

to the psychology side of things.

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I was doing physiotherapy as a

career at that point of studying,

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but a combination of having surgery

every year of my playing career.

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So I think it was eight or maybe eight

in nine years, I couldn't actually

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do a full week of work as a physio.

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By the time I was finished,

my shoulders would get sore

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after three reconstructions.

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So I started looking at

what else there might be.

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Went into coaching or leadership

consulting, I guess it was, but it

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was with elite sports teams as a

drop-in, hit-and-run kind of coach.

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Slowly building cultural change

programs that are owned by the

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operators as opposed to top down

coach command and control stuff.

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And that was my first taste of coaching,

which led me back, that was in New

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Zealand for a couple of years, led

me back to Australia to go into the

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AFL as a coach, and as luck would

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Harry: have it

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Paddy: a couple of months after I

joined that team, my first job as

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a development coach, the team I was

with was fined for breaching the

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salary cap the previous couple years.

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We got slugged a penalty

of two draft picks.

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So instead of my job being turning

a first round pick and just making

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him be a first round pick, my job was

to take a third round pick in making

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the equivalent of a first round pick.

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Psychology to me, partly 'cause of my

playing career and also just 'cause

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of a hunch looked like an area that.

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Really wasn't done

properly or systematically.

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And if we did it well, we could get

an advantage and maybe help these

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kids be better than what everyone

else projected they would be.

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And I started every off season, I'd go to

America to visit with some teams and meet

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with some psychologists and just learn

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i'd pay for it and disappear

for a couple of months.

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And then as the years went on with the

football job, I was getting promoted and

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I also got an offer from a university.

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Angela Duckworth was one of my favorite

researchers who I would read a lot of.

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She's the author of a book called Grit,

the Power of Passion and Perseverance.

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And I had read about her research in a

couple of other books until I was flying

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to go visit the Philadelphia Eagles

from Australia and over the Pacific.

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This woman's name came up

again for the third time.

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I was caught by it and I was like, oh,

and it's at University of Pennsylvania

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in Philadelphia, which at that time

I was like, Pennsylvania sounds

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like somewhere near Transylvania or

somewhere it's in Eastern Europe.

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So my no chance of going there.

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And I happened to be going to Philly.

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So I sent an email, got connected

to her and the university, and

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then about a month later they

suggested I join a master's course.

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I was busy employed in Australia

at the time, but I ended

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up putting it in on a whim.

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And lucky I did 'cause the co-chair

I was under that got fired.

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I got a payout and I went

and studied in America.

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And then since then, you just described

everything before in the intro.

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Harry: It's great how you had

that practitioner experience.

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And then on top of that, take the risks.

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You knew what you're after

and then sounds risky.

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I guess at the time it was all exciting

and that you probably didn't think much

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of it, but I want to come back to the

teams that you've been working with

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'cause there's, I think there's some

great insights to be taken outta that.

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One thing I just want to, you, you just

mentioned a minute ago was when the

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mental tools and cognitive skills that

we use, that we all have inherently,

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but we just need how, just like we have

arms, but then may not be strong or our

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hand eye coordination needs development.

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You mentioned superstition.

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It's very rarely talked about.

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I picked up on it from cricket, mental

routines and all those types of things.

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And they become superstitions and

cricket's one of those things where

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people won't even leave the seat for

a whole session because they think

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somehow someone's gonna get out.

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Do you cover superstition and is

there a point in your mind where

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the conversation starts to turn

when you are working with athletes?

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Paddy: It'll come up if someone uses

the word superstition, but often it's

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just a matter of, it's an avoidance

behavior that helps remove the discomfort.

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So whether it's, I'm gonna visualize

for 20 minutes, like there's a very

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little evidence to suggest visualization

helps you in a complex task.

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So you are doing that because you think

it helps, but the only reason you think

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it helps is 'cause there's either a false

correlation or because you feel better

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afterwards and you associate feeling good

with executing good and that's not the

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case, 'cause most people who are experts

can usually think of a time when I felt

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shit but I still performed well or I felt

uncomfortable and I still crushed the

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speech or the presentation or the podcast.

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And so the ability like people who

often use superstitions or habitual

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routines are usually doing so as a way

to handle their emotional regulation

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rather than to improve their attention

on what's critical in the moment.

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The psychology I was presented

early on was very much based in the

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cognitive behavioral therapy mold

where it's your thoughts create your

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feelings, which create your action.

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We can control our thoughts, which

can control our feelings, which then

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allow us to perform well or do well.

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Whereas there's a alternate approach

to psychology, which I stumbled on

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by working with elite performers.

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It struck me how often they would

be like, I'd be talking about that

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thought, feeling, action cascade.

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And they're like, no, no, it's not.

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It's not how I do it.

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I do it the other way.

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I just, it's all about action and , the

game doesn't give a shit how I feel.

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And that started me down the path of

this process called Acceptance Commitment

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therapy, which is much more applicable to

high-pressure, high-stakes performance.

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And that's really more about, if

I feel uncomfortable, I don't need

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a superstition to get rid of it.

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I just need a plan so I don't have

to think while I'm in the moment.

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Harry: I remember you saying it's 80 games

a year and you might have three in this,

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so you might be away for months at a time.

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It was hard to maintain

relationships, so just , talk us

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through some of the other takeaways.

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You worked in Philadelphia,

Toronto, Boston, down in Texas for

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a period, and the travel that goes

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with

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that, with elite sport in the U.S.

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Paddy: Yeah, I think reflecting on

it now, from a practitioner point

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of view was great because working

in baseball is one of the quickest

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ways to get good or get out.

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Like you realize I'm just not gonna do

this so it doesn't fire me up enough

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to continue to push through that.

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Or you get reps every day.

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It's actually 160 games in 180 days

is one baseball regular season,

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let alone playoffs, let alone the

six weeks of preseason before that.

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So for more than six months,

there's exposure to a performance

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environment, or as you guys would

call it, an immersion event.

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As a psychologist or a coach, an

immersion event is sitting in a locker

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room with a player or being on the

field with them while they're in a

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state that needs either rectifying or

coming back to the plan they committed.

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And so as a practitioner,

that's my first reflection.

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Once I've come up there, I'm like,

oh, that was actually good for me.

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It took me a few years to get

my head around that though.

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Harry: Yeah,

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Paddy: because I think when we met,

I was right in the midst of it and

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I was not enjoying the fact that

I was on the road all the time.

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That was one of the big

questions I had for you.

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Like, how do we handle deployment?

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Because that's effectively, and

particularly now, when I left Australia

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just 10 days ago now, I left full well

knowing I'm not back until Christmas,

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which is more than three months.

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Most of it's gonna be in hotel

bubbles, getting my nose scraped

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by a not so gentle PCR tester.

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And so while it's not same as being

on deployment in the military,

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there's still parallels, I think we

discussed when I brought that topic up,

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Harry: Yeah, definitely.

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Paddy: The chronic nature of distress

that builds up, and I think you guys

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refer to it as residue, which I think

is a great way of describing it.

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It doesn't feel like much until you've

been doing it for three months and then

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you're just like, why am I so jaded

or just can't be bothered with, and

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normally I'd attack this gym session;

today, I just can't be bothered.

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Or people would report that they

are happy to do a half-assed job

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'cause maybe it means they can

go home for a couple of days.

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And it's really unusual with

these high performers to hear them

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describe their experience like that.

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And they're almost ashamed of it,

but it's in some ways a natural

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physiological consequence of having

that consistent level of cortisol.

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And in some cases, it's really about

accepting that if you want to go

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to the World Cup, this is the cost.

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The cost is a little higher this year

than normal years, but if that's gonna

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be the cost, then what are we gotta

do to make sure we maintain our energy

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so that when we're in our immersion

events, we're not impacting the

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other guys who are getting ready for

theirs, which a lot of people watch.

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Ours happens behind the scenes, but it's

still potentially just as important.

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And so my tricks that I'm still

working out is making sure I exercise

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every day, get up, get some sunlight.

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Is there some great tips from the Huberman

Lab podcast, which I recommend getting on.

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Harry: Andrew Huberman did a great

podcast with MCTI, I think it was

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podcast number three it was actually

a transformative podcast for me.

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It goes for two hours,

so it goes for a while.

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He picked up about the chronic

nature of whether it's military

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deployments or spending three months

on the road with a football team,

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and there are plenty of parallels.

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I like to remind people,

non-military people who go, ah, what?

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What's the secret?

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Well secret is that for 99% of you,

you sit around doing stuff all.

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It's a pretty banal

existence in the military.

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When you're on high cycle in special

operations, it's a different thing.

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You might have periods of increased

functionality, but I like the

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concept of allostatic load.

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It explains a lot, and anyone

listening can just Wikipedia

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allostatic load and get it, get the

concept, and then overlay onto that.

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Paddy: I put my hand up as a

rookie on that front and say,

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I probably have heard it.

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Right now you say allostatic load.

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And I'm like, please tell me what that is.

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Harry: It's the nerds

label for chronic stress.

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Long duration.

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Gotcha.

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Stress.

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But it actually, it explains a bit.

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And I feel like when I played football,

but when I was playing junior footy,

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the coach at Rockingham Junior Footy

Club, you'd have a hammy tear or a

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strain and you knew something was

wrong and he'd tell you to run it out.

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Like seriously, it wouldn't

be a joke or anything.

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He'd say, rah, run 10 laps.

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And so there you were running

with a hamstring tear.

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That's both the worst things

you could possibly ever do.

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And so I feel like we're at the same stage

with mental skills and cognitive skills.

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We're only just getting over the run

it out and mentality and coaches are

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just starting to come to terms with it.

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In the U.S.

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do they have, is there resistance

still or is it starting to relent?

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Paddy: It's definitely becoming more of

a thing, like you look at Naomi Osaka.

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With her pulling out of, I think it

was the French or the US Open, maybe,

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sorry, Wimbledon and what Simone

Biles did at the Olympics where

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she just stopped mid event because

she had, and here's the tricky bit.

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Naomi's was definitely

a mental health issue.

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She has a recognized anxiety disorder

and while some of the society is

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like, Hey, let's you know, back

off her, she's dealing with stuff

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and we should be, it's 2021.

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We should allow people to take days off

work if they're having mental illness.

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This is why you get paid $20

million, blah, blah, blah.

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And so whilst there is more acceptance,

still not a, at a level of broad

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acceptance where concussion has

come a little further, but there are

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still people who think that if with a

concussion you should just push through

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as well, which is obviously not ideal.

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Whereas with Simone files who got what

they call twisties in gymnastics, or

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they caught getting twisted in diving.

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It's actually a physiological issue.

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So it's not a mental health.

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I'm nervous.

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I can't do this.

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The nerves are well founded

because you've lost your ability

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to locate yourself in space.

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Yeah.

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And you might break your neck.

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So her getting nervous wasn't her having

an anxiety attack that was legitimate

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nerves, because I might have hurt myself.

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You and I, and probably every

listener would have if we tried

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to do even half of what she does.

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She does things that no

other human has done before.

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And so if either of us were asked to

do it, we would get very nervous and

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we'd probably say, nah, not today, but

we just expect her to be a superhuman.

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And so on both instances, there are a

group of people who are like, good on

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you girl, and you should be looking

after your mental health, and we

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should be looking after the athletes.

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And then there's still a crowd who

expect them to be superhuman and

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think that these people are here for

our edification and entertainment.

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And hopefully in 20 years it's moved

a little more towards the suggestion I

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put forward is that the ability to pull

out of an event, to talk to your coach,

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to actually be mentally injured is the

same as a physical injury where there

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is allowances in the American system.

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In the Disabilities At Work Act, there is

an allowance for mental health time off

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as long as it's assessed by a psychiatrist

and it's or a legit disorder, and then

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you're allowed to have work from home

environments or anything like that.

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The equivalent can be done in sport.

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We just need to actually

start treating it.

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We feel stuff, we have hormone levels

that make us feel a certain way, and

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that when we can start to relate,

like when I feel significantly

353

:

depressed or when someone has a panic

attack, that's a physiological event.

354

:

It's not just something in their mind.

355

:

And when we can start to get that

into the normal conversation,

356

:

then we can potentially treat it

like, that person's not crazy.

357

:

They've just got an injury.

358

:

Harry: When I talk about leadership

and we do leadership workshops,

359

:

we go into human performance.

360

:

I think again, it's less an option

anymore for leaders to understand this

361

:

stuff because as implications for how

you make people feel, the environment

362

:

that you set and develop around people,

the attitude you bring to it, the old

363

:

just suck it up and survive has a place.

364

:

Absolutely.

365

:

When there's five minutes left and

scores a level, as we saw the other

366

:

night, there is no room really to start

thinking who's okay and who's not,

367

:

just get out there and get on with it.

368

:

But I think in terms of

how we prepare people, that

369

:

conversation is less and less.

370

:

An option and more an obligation.

371

:

So you've worked with some

pretty high level athletes.

372

:

Where does the discussion start for you?

373

:

Paddy: Usually it starts where

the performer wants it to start.

374

:

Some of them will say, I wanna set goals.

375

:

Most of the time, by the time they're at

the level that a lot of the performers

376

:

I work with are at, they're already

either pretty good at setting goals or

377

:

they're one of those types of people who

doesn't set goals and they just go and do.

378

:

I would talk about it as pre-event,

in-event, and post-event skill sets or

379

:

toolboxes, and more and more my work

tends to focus on the in-event elements,

380

:

which are really about how would you

like for all of your talent and your

381

:

hard work to be able to come out when you

need it most on a big stage without your

382

:

thoughts or your feelings get in the way.

383

:

In fact, we might even use those thoughts

and feelings to make you even sharper.

384

:

And it's either that way, frame, or

if you want a simple definition, it's

385

:

being able to have your attention

on the right thing and executing

386

:

the right action at the right time.

387

:

And that that you'll notice, as

I say, that doesn't use the word

388

:

thoughts or feelings at all.

389

:

Because again, getting back to that

acceptance commitment stuff, it's,

390

:

I've already paraphrased the player

earlier, but I use this a lot: the

391

:

game doesn't give a shit how you feel.

392

:

And so thinking and acting and talking

about how you feel, unless you're

393

:

really good at producing a certain

state that is useful for the given

394

:

activity you're trying to do, you're

spending a lot of time and energy

395

:

and attention on something that will

probably get to that right spot anyway.

396

:

If you are, attention and actions

are focused on the right thing.

397

:

So most of my work with a

performer will be, what do you

398

:

wanna focus on when you're good?

399

:

What do you normally do?

400

:

And then how about we just

commit a plan to do that?

401

:

And then we review it.

402

:

How did you go with that plan?

403

:

Oh, I was pretty good, but in the

third at bat, an umpire squeezed

404

:

my strike zone and I lost my shit.

405

:

Okay.

406

:

Is an umpire gonna squeeze

your strike zone again?

407

:

Probably.

408

:

So, what are you gonna do

next time that happens?

409

:

And we build a plan for everything that

would knock them off their key focus areas

410

:

so that eventually, and usually if you're

having a decent time with an athlete or

411

:

a performer, this might happen over the

course of maybe four weeks, six weeks,

412

:

is they get to a point where there's

nothing that can get their attention

413

:

off what it should be on in the moment.

414

:

And there's nothing that can

make them change the actions that

415

:

they know, give them the best

chance of success in that moment.

416

:

Harry: So this sounds like

there's a little bit of mental

417

:

rehearsal or role playing almost.

418

:

Maybe not explicit role playing where you

stand up and go, but actually walking them

419

:

through mentally through that moment, back

in the moment when they were performing or

420

:

when things weren't going right, picking

it apart, analyzing it, and then maybe

421

:

going back and reconstructing it and then

continuing to do that over that period of

422

:

four weeks and trying to make it normal.

423

:

Is that the kind of psychology behind it?

424

:

Paddy: Yeah, I think so.

425

:

There, there are some really good

immersive exercises that I think

426

:

are more, I use 'em more as part of

that pre or post stuff to really get

427

:

people stripped away from their ego.

428

:

But in these, as you said, they're

breaking down their performance to

429

:

start with, I'll usually say think

of the best game you ever had, the

430

:

best month you've ever had, like best

presentation you've ever given, best

431

:

engagement you've had as an operator.

432

:

Usually there's not just one event.

433

:

Some people might go to one, but

if you ask the question when you're

434

:

really good, what are you paying

attention to and what do you do?

435

:

People can be like, oh, in my

best games I, the common answer

436

:

will be, I don't think anything.

437

:

And that's not technically true.

438

:

Because if you are paying

attention to something, there is

439

:

prob mental processing going on.

440

:

You just don't remember

thinking of anything, 'cause

441

:

memories are encoded by emotion.

442

:

And so when we start to dig into that,

they're like, oh yeah, I'm actually paying

443

:

attention to the release point of the ball

or to the outside lineman's left foot.

444

:

And that's the thing that allows me

to know whether I go left and once

445

:

you clear it up for them, you're like,

okay, so we should focus on this,

446

:

that and that, and do this and that.

447

:

And if you do those most plays,

you're gonna give yourself a chance.

448

:

Yeah, all right, let's

see how we go with that.

449

:

And then that's more of a

generic review of when I'm good.

450

:

And then we go and expose

that plan to the fire.

451

:

And it's never gonna be a hundred percent,

but we come back and we, without judgment

452

:

or making 'em feel bad if they miss

something, say with curiosity, "Oh, okay.

453

:

So like the example I gave before

the umpire strike zone came up.

454

:

Is that gonna happen again?"

455

:

"Yeah, probably".

456

:

"Do you need to build a plan to avoid

it from knocking you off again?"

457

:

"Yeah, probably".

458

:

So then we go through each competitive

action or each conversion event and

459

:

deconstruct what just happened and tweak

the plan a little bit and then commit

460

:

to doing it again and rinse and repeat.

461

:

Over time, within four to six

weeks, most people have got a

462

:

pretty rock solid, non-negotiable

plan that really sets 'em up.

463

:

It often will lift their floor

performances so they won't have the really

464

:

shit games, and when they stay there often

enough, then their ceiling starts to lift.

465

:

Harry: The teams that you've worked

in, are the cultures and organizations

466

:

there, is there support across the

broader organization for psychologists

467

:

to apply their craft or is it an

opt-in for each individual athlete?

468

:

Paddy: Yeah, I would say it's

much more the second, and

469

:

it's far from optimal at most.

470

:

There are some really good ones.

471

:

The Red Sox was a great organization.

472

:

It's probably the best example I've

seen in pro sports of something

473

:

that's really embedded and accepted.

474

:

All of the coaches treat the mental

coaches, just one of the staff and the

475

:

players are pretty open to it, and if guys

want to go in and do a meditation session

476

:

or wanna sit one-on-one in a dugout, it

just happens and no one makes fun of it.

477

:

In other teams I've been in,

it's a little more challenging.

478

:

I would like that to be different.

479

:

I would like it to be more standardized,

but I probably wouldn't have got my

480

:

shot if it wasn't like that because

I wasn't a licensed psychologist when

481

:

I started at the Philadelphia Eagles.

482

:

They just knew I'd played professionally

and I was finishing my Masters of Psych

483

:

and I was a coach, so they brought

me into coach that specific area.

484

:

And I think that's a blurry line.

485

:

There's a great YouTube

channel called Cinema Therapy.

486

:

And it's actually a therapist watching

movies, famous movies, with his buddy

487

:

who's a screenwriter or a director.

488

:

And in that process, they analyze what's

going on from both the psychological

489

:

point of view and a filmmaker of view.

490

:

And I just watched one recently

where they described Goodwill Hunting

491

:

and Robert Williams' character in

that movie as, and the therapy and

492

:

the acting is great, it's amazing.

493

:

But they were talking about one of the

strongest predictors of whether therapy

494

:

works, and this does apply to coaching

just as much, is the relationship.

495

:

You could be the smartest

psychologist in the room.

496

:

It doesn't mean shit if the athlete isn't

gonna connect with you and trust you.

497

:

And so there's a balancing act there

of can you have the skillset as a

498

:

coach and a practitioner, but also

can you morph and blend into the

499

:

locker room so they don't feel like

they're talking to some weird dude.

500

:

In some instances, I actually want

the person to get outta the locker

501

:

room and go see a specialist.

502

:

So they're very clearly cut off from the

locker room macho bullshit and they can go

503

:

and deal with an actual anxiety disorder

or an actual depressive episode or maybe

504

:

they're having some marital problems.

505

:

Most of the time their ability to

connect with whoever's gonna provide

506

:

that service is half of the answer.

507

:

Harry: Yeah, definitely.

508

:

And that's something I've found.

509

:

Doesn't matter what realm you're in.

510

:

Like here in Australia, a guy named

Alistair Clarkson, he's the probably the

511

:

best Australian football league coach in

the last two decades, probably or more.

512

:

Whenever he talks, he's

a knock about bloke.

513

:

He loses his shit here and there and he's,

he's pretty rough and ready to go and he

514

:

was a terrier of as a football player.

515

:

But he, it's all he talks about

is just talking about building

516

:

the relationships with the blokes.

517

:

Empathy, understanding

people having an approach.

518

:

There's a lot of good coaching

methodologies that I would encourage

519

:

budding leaders to go and explore.

520

:

Just Socratic questioning and

understanding why that's important

521

:

and why open-ended questions are

important and the ability to listen.

522

:

Coaches have their own stresses sometimes.

523

:

Sometimes worried that they're not getting

bought into feeling like imposters,

524

:

sitting in front of an MVP or a future

Hall of Famer at times must, you

525

:

must be going, shit, am I up to this?

526

:

So you are going to go in your own

stress and you forget the fundamentals

527

:

of good communication and good

listening and good question asking.

528

:

So I think these mental

skills are really important.

529

:

And as I said, there's a real laundry

list of mental skills and tools.

530

:

Some of those are born directly

out of pure psychology,

531

:

cognitive behavioral therapy.

532

:

I mentioned reframing before,

and reflection, goal setting

533

:

and compartmentalization.

534

:

But there's these other

more nuanced tools.

535

:

The use of humor, the use of environment,

being smart enough to pick up that

536

:

the new players might feel a bit

intimidated in the locker room, but

537

:

if you take 'em out to the bloody car

park and put 'em in front, a Mustang

538

:

car that you found out that they liked.

539

:

Yeah, might, and I think the

coaches, the good coaches get those.

540

:

They're all legitimate mental,

cognitive type of tools.

541

:

Do you have any favorites or

any that you've found that you

542

:

come back to again and again?

543

:

Paddy: Yeah, I think humor

is definitely part of

544

:

Harry: you're a pretty funny guy.

545

:

Paddy: I'm funny looking.

546

:

I know that much.

547

:

The ability and also just having an

Australian accident in America made

548

:

me automatically funny at times.

549

:

Harry: That novelty.

550

:

Paddy: Yeah.

551

:

But there's an element

of that I didn't realize.

552

:

I naturally like probably 'cause

I'd been an athlete in a locker room

553

:

and when things got tense you might

throw a joke around or whatever.

554

:

I realized as I got better as a player,

stopped relying on superstitions so much,

555

:

part of it was just like making a joke

and realizing this is just a fucking game.

556

:

I got feedback from a couple of

colleagues who said, these two things

557

:

are your strengths: one is your

empathy and the other is your humor.

558

:

Yeah.

559

:

And I was like, oh, I'm not like

this isn't, I take it seriously

560

:

when I'm working with someone

and they're like, you kidding me?

561

:

You make jokes all the time

and it's actually really good.

562

:

So.

563

:

I then probably became a little more

aware, and I wouldn't say deliberate,

564

:

not trying to crack a joke, but

being more flexible with that.

565

:

All right, if there's a joke

to be made, then I'll do

566

:

it.

567

:

And

568

:

Paddy: there's some good research

around the use of humor, particularly in

569

:

leadership context, but within therapy

as well, that we're talking about the

570

:

trust between the relationship between

the therapist and the client or the coach

571

:

and the athlete or performer is governed

in a lot by how much trust there is.

572

:

And humor is a big builder of trust,

if it's done appropriately, obviously.

573

:

Inappropriate humor, not okay.

574

:

And so I think that that

is a part of my toolkit.

575

:

I guess the other one that I think is

a little more, I would say, woowoo,

576

:

if I'm putting on my athlete or

operator hat, and someone did this to

577

:

me when I was 19, actually, at 19, I

would've been drinking the Kool-Aid.

578

:

I would've gone with it when

I was 25 and a bit more jaded.

579

:

I would've been like,

what the fuck is this?

580

:

This is bullshit.

581

:

But having since seen it done in

front of a psychology class and then,

582

:

on a whim trying it with an athlete,

and it was incredibly powerful.

583

:

It was an exercise that I now call,

and this is totally not my exercise,

584

:

so please don't think I'm taking credit

for this, but the problem is I can't

585

:

credit where I got it from 'cause I

don't know who invented the exercise.

586

:

It's what I call 15 and 50.

587

:

And when someone's stuck contemplating

all the reasons why things shouldn't

588

:

be the way they are or why I shouldn't

have to do this, or why I'm a failure

589

:

and basically their attention is on

things that either aren't helpful or

590

:

real, but what are you gonna do about it?

591

:

And the activity goes: you get someone

seated, you put a chair on one side

592

:

of them and a chair on the other side.

593

:

You get him into a meditative state

and then you're like, just picture

594

:

your 15-year-old self has just

sat down on the edge of the bed.

595

:

Look at that person.

596

:

Remember who you are as 15,

like you see them, little punk.

597

:

Thinks he's so cool, a little bit

more nervous than he lets on, and you

598

:

really get into reconnecting with that

15-year-old and then the 15-year-old looks

599

:

up and he looks dead at you and, and look

at the way the 15-year-old looks at you.

600

:

Like he regards you with either

pride 'cause you're doing the thing

601

:

that he always dreamed of, which

is often the case with some of the

602

:

performers I'm talking with; or he's

regarding you with curiosity of like,

603

:

how the fuck did you end up there?

604

:

I never thought of doing this.

605

:

It helps you reconnect

with your core values.

606

:

What was really important to you as a kid?

607

:

Before the world washed

you over a little bit.

608

:

And then specifically with whatever

they're struggling with if he knew

609

:

you were facing that challenge,

what would 15-year-old you do?

610

:

And it usually is a fairly clarifying

question of, oh, he'd either

611

:

just jump right in 'cause he's so

glad to have the opportunity and

612

:

he wouldn't complain about it.

613

:

Or he'd walk away, 'cause he

can't be bothered with it.

614

:

They're our two choices

in most situations.

615

:

Hop in or get out.

616

:

And then likewise, for the 15 and

50, you'd turn the other chair

617

:

and you have 50-year-old you.

618

:

Or if I'm working with someone

who's 50, then it's 60-year-old you.

619

:

But projecting into the future of the

guy who's done and dusted, he's had

620

:

enough, retired , been through everything

that you don't even know is coming yet.

621

:

They also know what you're

going through right now.

622

:

Like they actually lived it, but

now they're not in the fire anymore

623

:

and they're not feeling the emotions

you are feeling, but they're really

624

:

clear on what's important in life.

625

:

What's their advice for you as

they look at you, the young punk

626

:

who's so caught up in the day that

like, in 20 years, no one's gonna

627

:

care about what you feel today.

628

:

So what would 50-year-old do tell you?

629

:

It's an immersive activity.

630

:

Harry: Yeah, I love it.

631

:

Paddy: It helps values clarification

and usually commitment to, here's what

632

:

I'm gonna do and I'm not gonna sit

here and keep complaining about shit.

633

:

I'm either gonna act to get it outta

my life, I'm gonna accept it and move

634

:

on, or I'm gonna do something about it.

635

:

Harry: Are values important to start

that kind of cognitive development,

636

:

cognitive control journey?

637

:

Paddy: I think they're vital.

638

:

They're embedded in everything that we do.

639

:

Probably not at the top of mind level,

but usually when someone's stuck in one

640

:

of those situations where they either

can't decide what to do or they know what

641

:

they should do and they're not doing it,

or they're complaining about something

642

:

that has nothing to do with whether

they're doing the right thing or not.

643

:

When people are stuck with their attention

not on what's important, it's because

644

:

they've forgotten what's important.

645

:

And that applies to everyone.

646

:

This is a human issue.

647

:

We get distracted by shiny things or

scary things, and they take us away

648

:

from sometimes the boring things

or the things that you just take

649

:

for granted until it's too late.

650

:

Or until you've gone so far down a

path that you can't even remember

651

:

what was important anymore.

652

:

Being able to be consistently

connected to that is key.

653

:

If I strip this back to not getting

so deep into life values, which

654

:

that exercise was about, but if you

think about it in the context of a

655

:

basketball game, what's valuable?

656

:

A point.

657

:

What's more valuable?

658

:

Two points.

659

:

What's more?

660

:

Three points.

661

:

And so our ability to act in line

with that value means that when I feel

662

:

scared about going up and defending

this guy, Steph Curry's gonna shoot

663

:

from wherever he is gonna shoot from,

I have to accept that he might burn me

664

:

and score two points, but two points

is better than three points against.

665

:

So I have to accept my fear

and still act in a valued way.

666

:

And our ability to understand within

the context that we're operating.

667

:

It's our ability to know what's

valuable here and what can I do to

668

:

move us a little closer to that.

669

:

And that's with yourself and

your life or with your teammates.

670

:

There's this guy, it's not only

this guy, but this guy has done

671

:

a bunch of work to set up the

acceptance commitment therapy model.

672

:

His name's Steven Hayes.

673

:

Great guy.

674

:

And really a great example of what you

mentioned at the start, Harry, since both

675

:

you and I have lived it in a different

way where you were an operator and now

676

:

you've got your psych hat on occasionally.

677

:

I was an athlete and now

I've got my psych hat on.

678

:

Steven came at it from a different angle.

679

:

He was a therapist, but he developed

a crippling anxiety disorder, like

680

:

outta the blue, outta nowhere.

681

:

So he was sunk into this pit

and he couldn't work out why he

682

:

couldn't therapy himself using

what he gave to everyone else.

683

:

And eventually he started to reconsider

the fact that it wasn't a bad

684

:

thing, that he had panic episodes.

685

:

Clearly it was not functional for his

life, but that instead of trying to

686

:

avoid everything, that gave him panic,

he had to learn to accept it and try

687

:

and at least come to terms with it.

688

:

Almost like acclimatization.

689

:

And he developed this stuff initially

was used a lot in treatment of

690

:

phobias, in treatment of addiction

to be able to steel those feelings

691

:

and still act the right way.

692

:

Cause once a panic disorder gets

hold, you can't think your way down;

693

:

you can't breathe your way out.

694

:

And so the ability to actually deal

with the presence of an emotion

695

:

that still act the right way is

really what he started to develop.

696

:

And he has six key psychological

processes, which I use pretty regularly

697

:

now and particularly when it comes to the

baseline education stuff, 'cause they're

698

:

lined up pretty well with the six types of

physical fitness where if you go to a gym,

699

:

you can work on your strength, you can

work on your speed, you can work on your

700

:

agility, you can work on your flexibility,

you can work on your stability.

701

:

These things all apply to our

psychological skill as well.

702

:

I can have psychological flexibility,

I can have mental strength, I can

703

:

have emotional endurance, and these

things are actually trainable,

704

:

particularly in two senses.

705

:

One, my ability to be aware of

what's required in the moment.

706

:

Sometimes I need to hang on, sometimes

I need to give up, and part of that

707

:

is recognizing are my emotions telling

me is this good data or is this noise?

708

:

And then the second part

is when I need to make

709

:

that commitment, when I

need to change direction,

710

:

Paddy: is being flexible and adaptable

enough to do the right thing.

711

:

As I said before, paying attention

to the right thing and taking the

712

:

right action at the right time,

which is so context dependent.

713

:

Harry: Yeah, I Love the physical analogy.

714

:

For me, I was surprised that the

basics still resonate with people.

715

:

And I think when you're talking to

athletes, and I find the same, talking

716

:

to operators and frontline first

responders, they're very physical jobs.

717

:

So their perception and their

experience of the world really

718

:

is through their physical selves.

719

:

You think of a paramedic or

an emergency medical even what

720

:

they smell is really important.

721

:

A soldier, what you smell

can be the difference.

722

:

If you're in the jungle, you

can only see two or 10 meters,

723

:

smell becomes number one.

724

:

In those contexts that we are really

physically minded so I love to hear you

725

:

draw that analogy of the six physiological

ways to train and overlaying them, and

726

:

I think it makes it very accessible.

727

:

How important is psychological

education for athletes?

728

:

Is there any literacy of note in these

young men and women that you train with

729

:

and do you think it's worth the effort to

have psychoeducation sessions and whatnot?

730

:

Paddy: Vital.

731

:

I think even more important than having

a psychologist in the environment.

732

:

Because let's just say how much a

psychologist might cost if you dragged

733

:

them around everywhere you went, they're

not cheap on the team budget, and

734

:

particularly at lower level colleges,

high school teams, they're not gonna have

735

:

a psychologist with them all the time.

736

:

So if you can actually have

psychological education, there's

737

:

a couple of things that happen.

738

:

One that normalizes talking about

this stuff that you can't see.

739

:

And like you said, it actually gives a

language or some labels to these things

740

:

and that they're probably a couple

of the key outcomes of either good

741

:

psychological therapy or even just good

coaching is for us to be able to put a

742

:

label on while we seal so that then I

know if this thing comes up, this thing

743

:

that I label nerves, or I might label

butterflies, whatever you label it.

744

:

When I get butterflies,

this happens to me.

745

:

So instead next time I get

butterflies, I'm gonna do x.

746

:

And our ability to just have a language

that we use for that not only makes

747

:

it easier for us to be aware of what's

happening and to respond, but it

748

:

actually allows us to help each other.

749

:

And so the education piece, when

there's small groups, not large groups,

750

:

small groups of what would effectively

be a community of practice inside a

751

:

sports team or a performing team in a

surgical theater on a stage, wherever

752

:

it might be, where we're all doing the

same job, just different versions of

753

:

it, but we're dealing with the same

complex problem is when we can talk

754

:

about our internal battlefield and about

the terrain we're trying to traverse.

755

:

And your map is different to mine.

756

:

Harry: Yep.

757

:

Paddy: It helps to actually

be able to share that.

758

:

And because sometimes I can

see you getting into a trap

759

:

before you can, and vice versa.

760

:

Harry: I love that that goes

to peer support as well.

761

:

I see psychoeducation as a mental tool,

so it is pretty obvious when I say it out

762

:

loud, but we don't often appreciate it.

763

:

And you talked before about pre-event,

in event and post-event kind of approach.

764

:

I love that.

765

:

That's a key takeaway for me

professionally and I hadn't

766

:

really got that fixed in my mind.

767

:

The psychoeducation piece.

768

:

I've always looked at a young

sports person and gone, they

769

:

were doing this before they

even knew what they were doing.

770

:

They knew that it felt good, that it was

fun, and for a lot of 'em it still is.

771

:

Elite sports people and operators and

frontline responders that just love

772

:

the work, love the competence and

confidence that it gives them, et cetera.

773

:

But it's years down the track before

they really understand how they're

774

:

doing it or why they're doing it.

775

:

And so it seems to me, not only is it

good for teams and groups to understand

776

:

cognitive and physiology as well,

we know so much more about that now.

777

:

It's definitely a one or two

or 5% addition to performance.

778

:

So I think cumulatively with all of these

things, psychoeducation and learning

779

:

cognitive tools, we haven't really

started to untap that or unleash it yet.

780

:

What are some of the common cognitive

traps or cognitive issues that you

781

:

find in elite performers as you've

gone through the last decade or so?

782

:

I know in the Sports Illustrated article,

you talk about going out while the batter

783

:

is practicing and talking through all

of the possible negative thoughts that

784

:

he may be having whilst he's batting

the coaches, watching in the stand, the

785

:

vampires against you and blah, blah,

blah, actually verbalizing that and

786

:

taunting him almost while he's batting.

787

:

Paddy: It was an on field

version of the 15 and 50.

788

:

There is a voice that we all have the

talking voice in our head, which is not

789

:

very useful while we're trying to do

stuff often, we're not talking around

790

:

ourselves when we're doing good shit.

791

:

And particularly if a player is trying

to use positive talk, that's probably

792

:

what I would call a trap often is

thinking that we can talk ourselves

793

:

into good shit and using positive words.

794

:

And if they're action cues, cool.

795

:

But if they're like "dominate" and "feel

good" and like "overpower", that's fine.

796

:

Like they work until they don't.

797

:

Like I can say I'm feeling good,

I'm feeling positive, but we

798

:

also have the other voice in

our head that calls bullshit.

799

:

I might try and tell myself I'm on

top of things, but if I truly feel

800

:

overwhelmed or if I'm finally facing that

opponent who's actually as good as me,

801

:

or maybe even better, then holy shit.

802

:

The little voice in our head when

I'm saying I'm, I've got this guy.

803

:

I've got this guy.

804

:

No, you don't.

805

:

Harry: You've got this term.

806

:

Now, I don't wanna make light

of it because it means it's

807

:

contextual and it means a lot

in some context for some people.

808

:

But one of the worst things you could

do is convince yourself you have it when

809

:

you just haven't and you need to come

to that acceptance, as you've indicated.

810

:

And it flows into superstitions as well.

811

:

Becoming maladaptive.

812

:

You're trapped in them.

813

:

They can't get out.

814

:

Paddy: Yeah, exactly.

815

:

And so when that voice either takes

over when he is not supposed to, and

816

:

you actually might be in a good place,

but the voice could even be your dad or

817

:

your auntie or your old school teacher.

818

:

Harry: Cricket commentator.

819

:

Paddy: Yeah, it could.

820

:

There you go.

821

:

It could be anyone.

822

:

That's often where it comes from is,

if I don't get this done, I'm gonna

823

:

be a disappointment to this person

who I just want to be loved by.

824

:

And often we won't hear that

voice, the exact voice, the

825

:

intonation, the accent, whatever.

826

:

But our desire to execute things perfectly

is usually because there's way down

827

:

the line, there's something underneath

it, but we don't need to get to that.

828

:

I always say to people I'm working

with, this isn't gonna be therapy on the

829

:

couch, and tell me about your childhood.

830

:

If you wanna understand, it doesn't

necessarily shift the needle too much

831

:

unless there's some seriously maladaptive

shit going on, at which point I'm

832

:

gonna hand you to someone else anyway.

833

:

But if we're talking about the

voice in your head, it's usually

834

:

trying to use that, almost like

the example I gave earlier of the

835

:

umpire, shrinking the strike zone

on a hitter, is to learn, okay, when

836

:

this happens, what am I gonna do?

837

:

A lot of it comes down to

having a plan on top of my plan.

838

:

Here's what I normally do, but if

this thing happens, I know that

839

:

if I do X, I give myself the best

chance of getting through it.

840

:

So when the voice perks up this person,

oh, I'm doing that drill with as

841

:

we've already had a discussion around

when the voice says x, i'm gonna pay

842

:

attention to why I can hear the voice.

843

:

It doesn't mean I have to engage with it.

844

:

It's the same as like I can

listen to the voice in my head.

845

:

I can listen to the coaches

chewing me out from the bench.

846

:

I can listen to the Muppet

in row three if I want.

847

:

Everyone's got opinions.

848

:

Everyone's telling you shit, or you're

good, or you should do X or Y, but

849

:

you are the one who's doing the thing.

850

:

And so our ability to block out the

person in row three, or our coach

851

:

at times, or even the critic inside

our heads, is really the key to

852

:

being able to keep our attention.

853

:

Again, back to that definition, is my

attention on the right things and am I

854

:

doing the right actions at the right time?

855

:

For the 30 seconds in between plays, I

can listen to the guy in row three all

856

:

I want, or I can look at the girl in

row five and my mind can go anywhere.

857

:

But when it needs to be where it

needs to be, can I get it there?

858

:

And that's what that activity

is about is like when.

859

:

Occasionally I would use humor in that.

860

:

like, Gee, I'm feeling sexy today.

861

:

God, I must look good in this uniform.

862

:

And again, it's funny, but your

job as a performer there is to

863

:

like, even if it does make you

feel good, you can't concentrate

864

:

on how you feel or how you look.

865

:

You have to do your thing.

866

:

And so that's an immersion practice.

867

:

Harry: Yeah, I love it.

868

:

It's a a little bit of

inoculation, isn't it?

869

:

I forget the technical term for

it, but that kind of approach.

870

:

Paddy: Exposure therapy?

871

:

Harry: Exposure therapy.

872

:

That's the one.

873

:

Yeah, it sounds kind of a little

the same, particularly when you're

874

:

standing behind the dugout there or

the batting crease and hurling abuse.

875

:

I know, again, coming back to Alistair

Clarkson, he used to get to match day

876

:

noise and play it over the big speakers

at training and then run drills for

877

:

the last five minutes with X amount

of goals down and put pressure on.

878

:

The players said that it actually, it felt

as close as it was ever going to feel.

879

:

That's a long way from running

laps of the beach in:

880

:

And I think again.

881

:

This cognitive skills and mental skills

will evolve and hopefully be accepted.

882

:

The last part of this mate, something

I'm really interested in at the

883

:

moment is group reflective practices.

884

:

Something I don't see a great deal

of, I see it in the football and

885

:

elite sports who seem to analyze

and review almost too much at times.

886

:

But I don't see it enough in other

realms of life, particularly in

887

:

corporates and broader industry.

888

:

It just doesn't exist.

889

:

And so trying to bring in reflective

practices around team building and

890

:

empathy building and trust building.

891

:

'Cause every business owner or

every enterprise owner wants

892

:

trust and accountability.

893

:

In my mind, the only way to do

that is to get together and share

894

:

stories and share experience.

895

:

Have you used group reflective practices?

896

:

Is it something that you have done much

of or what's your experience in it and

897

:

what do you think, is there value in it?

898

:

Paddy: Yeah, it actually is where

probably my journey started as a coach.

899

:

I mentioned I did leadership

consulting and I just did air quotes

900

:

for people who can't see the screen,

whatever the fuck that means, because

901

:

basically it was all psychology.

902

:

But at That stage, I wasn't qualified.

903

:

So I've been incredibly lucky to

get exposure at these things when

904

:

arguably if I was in charge, I

might not be hiring someone with

905

:

that skillset, but there I was.

906

:

And part of that practice was, the

reason I got into it is because

907

:

during my time as an athlete, I was

at a team that had a shit culture.

908

:

I was lucky to be there as it actually

shifted a little bit, even for two years.

909

:

I went from not being in the finals

for, might have been 20 or 30 years, to

910

:

making the finals for the first time.

911

:

And I was part of a program run

by a group called Leading Teams,

912

:

which there are some critics of.

913

:

And I would take some of what they

do now; I don't use all of it.

914

:

But it's basically grown up from Air Force

leadership training where it's giving

915

:

the operator or the person who's at the

coalface responsibility, accountability,

916

:

and ownership for what goes on so that

when the plan starts to go a little awry,

917

:

they're not just standing there saying,

oh, bloody hell, coach blew this one.

918

:

It's their plan.

919

:

They make the adjustments on the fly,

and if their teammates aren't pulling

920

:

their weight, they pull the teammates up

instead of hoping the coach will do it.

921

:

And so it's a decentralized leadership

model, I guess to some degree.

922

:

And part of that is doing small group

work within the playing group, which I

923

:

was facilitating those elite international

cricket team, international rugby players,

924

:

Olympic soccer team when I was 26, 27,

doing small group work in that area.

925

:

And to this day, it's still the

best quality discourse you'll

926

:

get unless there's a very open

individual who's ready to do the work.

927

:

You'll need three or four males in the

room, preferably not facing each other

928

:

so that they can talk with vulnerability

and with honesty about what they

929

:

really think and what they really feel.

930

:

And with an acceptance of, I'm part

of the problem, and that includes for

931

:

their own performance, but talking

about team performance as well.

932

:

Did I answer your question?

933

:

Harry: that Question will be open-ended

for quite a while mate, because

934

:

there's still a lot of resistance

and each team and each individual

935

:

needs to make their own journey.

936

:

And really for guys like you and me and

all the psychologists out there, there's

937

:

still so much learning to be done because

each person presents in a different way.

938

:

One thing I would say, a reflection I have

off the back of that is that one bit of

939

:

success that we had back in the day in

the military was putting the psychologists

940

:

down into the training environments, and

you talked about being out there on the

941

:

field with the batters and the pitchers

in baseball, and allowing relationships to

942

:

prosper and to have a joke and to get to

know, share the lexicon and the language.

943

:

There's a whole different language

down in the change rooms that

944

:

people don't get and it's local too.

945

:

It can be around a song or it can be

around when you're a young dickhead and

946

:

you watch a movie and then your mates

just talk to each other through the

947

:

movie lines for the next six months and

only, you know what you're talking about.

948

:

There's just so you need

to get to that level.

949

:

And I think the good coaches

pick up on those types of things.

950

:

Paddy: I think there's actually, like

you mentioned, they're the good coaches.

951

:

I think whoever's in charge of

the environment, in a lot of cases

952

:

in sport, it's the head coach.

953

:

But whether it's the GM, the director

of performance, which I'm lucky

954

:

enough to fill that role now, the

person who actually puts people

955

:

into the environment plays a huge

role in allowing that to happen.

956

:

I know that the basketball team I was

at in the NBA developed some great

957

:

relationships in year one because

I had that same experience as you.

958

:

When you're embedded and you're

in the dugout or you're in

959

:

that training environment, you

build better relationships.

960

:

They normalize you being around, they

become comfortable talking to you.

961

:

You get little windows of vulnerability

where you can start to pry the door open.

962

:

Harry: It's exponential.

963

:

Paddy: Yes.

964

:

I would rebound for the players while

they're shooting free throws or on

965

:

the side with throwing the balls in

during drills, and it really embedded

966

:

me with particularly a couple of the

key players and then a new management

967

:

came in the next year, and it didn't

affect the relationships I had already

968

:

built, but with two or three players

coming in the environment, it did change

969

:

the way I was able to interact or the

amount I was able to interact there.

970

:

So I, I can't stress enough.

971

:

It's not necessarily the psychologist's

job to make psychology normal.

972

:

They already clearly think it's normal.

973

:

'cause they're doing it as a job.

974

:

Yeah.

975

:

Whoever's creating the environment

needs to give them space and involve

976

:

them and not have them be the

weird dude in the corner office.

977

:

Harry: That was what happened with

strength and conditioning coaches, who

978

:

up to this point in time really are the

psychologists to a large extent, right?

979

:

They're listening to social problems

with moms, dads, girlfriends,

980

:

bloody addictions, whatever.

981

:

On the field, at the gun line with the

psychologist, they can start to have

982

:

discussions about goal setting, goal

attainment, reframing, chunking and

983

:

compartmentalizing and psychoeducation

discussions about rehearsal

984

:

reflection, the part that role play

can play and things like self-talk.

985

:

Self-talk is one of those things

that I'm with you, that it's the

986

:

pendulum swung way too far in terms

of just say it and it will be true.

987

:

And we know that can be such

a cognitive trap and the list

988

:

goes on of all of the different.

989

:

Tools that can be used.

990

:

And then there's the art of applying

those tools at the right time and

991

:

the right place for the right people.

992

:

And I think that's the real

art and it's a journey.

993

:

A few questions to finish off mate.

994

:

What are a couple of tips that you

use to keep yourself moving forward?

995

:

A bit of advice on self-care for

those in coaching and senior roles.

996

:

Paddy: I started with it earlier when

I said making sure I exercise every

997

:

day unless I really need a sleep in,

which is a little bit subjective, but

998

:

often related to, I only got four or

five hours last night, so I'm not sure

999

:

if I'll work out tomorrow morning, but

mostly having it as an everyday thing.

:

00:52:19,286 --> 00:52:22,916

Eating not many carbs and

mostly fish, salad and fruit.

:

00:52:22,976 --> 00:52:25,436

Just trying to keep the

high energy foods going.

:

00:52:26,126 --> 00:52:32,606

If either of those are not your cup of

tea, then meditation has been a pretty

:

00:52:32,756 --> 00:52:37,136

consistent part of my life now, my

practice for a good couple of years.

:

00:52:37,981 --> 00:52:41,071

Then finally just one problem at a time.

:

00:52:41,251 --> 00:52:44,251

If I turned around and showed you the

list that I've scribbled out on the hotel

:

00:52:44,251 --> 00:52:47,221

notepad here, there's almost two pages.

:

00:52:47,221 --> 00:52:50,701

And I don't have big writing of

things that have literally come up

:

00:52:51,031 --> 00:52:53,821

just while I've been in this hotel

room, which is only four days.

:

00:52:54,181 --> 00:52:57,961

So there's always more than one

problem to work on, but you can

:

00:52:57,961 --> 00:53:00,361

only do it properly one at a time.

:

00:53:00,421 --> 00:53:02,851

And being able to accept that like,

all right, one of 'em is gonna

:

00:53:02,851 --> 00:53:05,731

have to wait, or in this case,

20 of 'em are gonna have to wait.

:

00:53:05,941 --> 00:53:09,511

And just working through

each problem as it comes up.

:

00:53:09,601 --> 00:53:12,001

None of it's groundbreaking advice.

:

00:53:12,161 --> 00:53:17,774

And then a lot of my focus with this group

in particular is about the word "closer".

:

00:53:18,224 --> 00:53:23,624

I heard, I used it earlier when I talked

about the ideal practice or the ideal

:

00:53:23,684 --> 00:53:29,939

execution or performance is nothing's ever

gonna be perfect or ideal, but our ability

:

00:53:29,939 --> 00:53:32,459

to move a little bit closer each time.

:

00:53:32,729 --> 00:53:36,119

So we go out and we play

China, we beat 'em three nil.

:

00:53:36,179 --> 00:53:38,339

It definitely wasn't the best

game, but we'll take three nil.

:

00:53:38,879 --> 00:53:43,529

But how do we move a little closer,

not only to our better selves, but

:

00:53:43,529 --> 00:53:45,419

potentially to each other in the group?

:

00:53:45,809 --> 00:53:49,079

We had a little ritual when we got

into this hotel, which I won't share

:

00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,609

because it's an internal thing, but

part of bringing the group closer

:

00:53:52,669 --> 00:53:56,119

as we move and all of it is about

moving closer to the World Cup.

:

00:53:56,809 --> 00:54:00,319

And so our ability to just recognize

that every time, even if I think it

:

00:54:00,319 --> 00:54:04,099

was a shit day, which occasionally

that happens, to be able to find

:

00:54:04,099 --> 00:54:06,979

somewhere, whereas, yeah, but we

got closer just by doing this thing.

:

00:54:06,979 --> 00:54:09,229

We got closer, or just by

talking with that person, me

:

00:54:09,229 --> 00:54:10,219

and that person got closer.

:

00:54:10,879 --> 00:54:16,009

Like we, in a discussion we had

debriefing the Olympics, particularly

:

00:54:16,009 --> 00:54:20,509

for our women's team who overachieved,

best result ever, went to the bronze

:

00:54:20,509 --> 00:54:23,359

medal match against the US Women's

national team, who were the number one

:

00:54:23,359 --> 00:54:26,869

team in the world, and unfortunately

lost in the bronze medal match.

:

00:54:26,939 --> 00:54:27,877

And by one goal.

:

00:54:27,877 --> 00:54:30,637

And it could have gone either way, also,

it could have gone to the gold medal.

:

00:54:30,637 --> 00:54:34,807

Again, lost by one goal and talking

afterwards, particularly with the

:

00:54:34,807 --> 00:54:37,477

coach, and he said, I just don't

want us to get comfortable 'cause

:

00:54:37,477 --> 00:54:38,557

everyone's patting us on the back.

:

00:54:38,557 --> 00:54:39,727

That's the best ever result.

:

00:54:39,837 --> 00:54:41,713

And everyone's, oh, it's a game of inches.

:

00:54:41,713 --> 00:54:42,823

And it could have gone another way.

:

00:54:42,913 --> 00:54:44,893

But really what we're talking

about here is if it's a game of

:

00:54:44,893 --> 00:54:46,933

inches, let's stack the inches.

:

00:54:47,323 --> 00:54:48,853

Let's get a little bit closer each day.

:

00:54:48,883 --> 00:54:50,743

Even if we only move

the needle a little bit.

:

00:54:51,223 --> 00:54:54,403

If you do that every day, every

tournament, every practice, by the

:

00:54:54,403 --> 00:54:58,243

time the next game of inches comes,

we've got 20 of them in the pocket.

:

00:54:58,423 --> 00:55:01,363

And so if we lose a couple inches,

we're miles ahead of everyone else.

:

00:55:02,193 --> 00:55:02,568

Rant over.

:

00:55:02,923 --> 00:55:04,423

I get a little excited talking about that.

:

00:55:04,453 --> 00:55:08,517

Harry: And it points to a whole other

area of kind of group psychology and

:

00:55:08,517 --> 00:55:13,467

group mentality and how you can tap

into the, creating a common foe or a

:

00:55:13,467 --> 00:55:18,357

common enemy or, or whatever you need

to do to galvanize everyone together.

:

00:55:19,037 --> 00:55:23,867

We've got a lot topics tonight, but

we always finish by asking our guests

:

00:55:24,467 --> 00:55:29,687

if they'll parachuted into a team on

Monday and they could change one thing

:

00:55:29,687 --> 00:55:35,147

immediately in that team to improve their

performance, not withstanding that you

:

00:55:35,147 --> 00:55:39,317

can't assess the team, what can the teams

in the Mission Critical Team Institute

:

00:55:39,317 --> 00:55:44,147

community do on Monday to perform better

in terms of cognitive performance?

:

00:55:44,147 --> 00:55:45,527

Their mental performance?

:

00:55:46,007 --> 00:55:48,917

Paddy: I would go around and connect

with as many people as I could do

:

00:55:48,917 --> 00:55:50,447

with the operators in the environ.

:

00:55:50,567 --> 00:55:53,657

They know it better than I potentially

will ever know it 'cause they've

:

00:55:53,657 --> 00:55:56,717

spent a lifetime in soccer, football,

depending on what country you're in,

:

00:55:57,287 --> 00:55:58,607

they've played at the highest levels.

:

00:55:58,607 --> 00:56:01,877

I don't know shit about football

compared to them, but I do know about

:

00:56:01,877 --> 00:56:04,877

teams working together and about

humans performing at their best.

:

00:56:04,967 --> 00:56:06,287

When you're really good,

what are you doing?

:

00:56:07,037 --> 00:56:07,877

Why don't we do that?

:

00:56:08,567 --> 00:56:11,027

Why don't we just make that the focus

instead of trying to like get better

:

00:56:11,027 --> 00:56:12,107

at shit that you're not good at.

:

00:56:13,067 --> 00:56:18,407

And number two, I view my role in teams

is how can I help you do your job better?

:

00:56:18,607 --> 00:56:21,967

And so often, in some instances

it'll be what's getting in the

:

00:56:21,967 --> 00:56:23,047

way of you doing your job better.

:

00:56:23,077 --> 00:56:24,187

When you're really good, what do you do?

:

00:56:24,877 --> 00:56:26,317

And currently, what's

getting in the way of that?

:

00:56:26,932 --> 00:56:30,519

Some people will often start pointing to

external, we need more money, and that

:

00:56:30,609 --> 00:56:34,209

guy doesn't let me do what I want to do

and she keeps talking behind my back.

:

00:56:34,809 --> 00:56:37,479

But eventually, if we have

that conversation often enough

:

00:56:38,169 --> 00:56:39,999

we start to go, oh, what?

:

00:56:39,999 --> 00:56:43,179

But what about what's inside you that's

stopping you from doing that stuff?

:

00:56:43,569 --> 00:56:45,009

'cause we can point to everyone else.

:

00:56:45,059 --> 00:56:46,259

There must be something else going on.

:

00:56:46,859 --> 00:56:48,929

So here's my, semi confident answer.

:

00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:50,369

I would ask those two questions.

:

00:56:50,369 --> 00:56:51,299

When you're good, what do you do?

:

00:56:51,749 --> 00:56:53,339

What's getting in the

way of there right now?

:

00:56:53,579 --> 00:56:54,959

Harry: Yeah, you're are

in good company mate.

:

00:56:54,959 --> 00:57:00,449

'cause I think Thaler and Kahneman

both talk about the obvious thing

:

00:57:00,449 --> 00:57:04,769

to do is to put more resources

in front of people and get more

:

00:57:04,769 --> 00:57:06,419

assistance to people to get better.

:

00:57:06,569 --> 00:57:11,249

And that is take, remove the blockers,

remove the things that stop people

:

00:57:11,249 --> 00:57:14,159

moving forward and they're everywhere

once you start looking for 'em.

:

00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:16,889

I think it's really good,

good advice to finish on.

:

00:57:16,889 --> 00:57:21,979

Mate, it's been great to reconnect Paddy,

and good to have you on the Teamcast.

:

00:57:22,319 --> 00:57:23,489

I wish you all the best mate.

:

00:57:23,489 --> 00:57:25,109

And again, thanks for coming on.

:

00:57:25,889 --> 00:57:26,489

Paddy: Thank you, Harry.

:

00:57:26,489 --> 00:57:30,269

And let me just say thank you to the

mission critical community because

:

00:57:30,269 --> 00:57:33,989

that's been a large part of what's

changed my practice and made me better.

:

00:57:33,989 --> 00:57:38,725

I know that when Preston first invited

me, I was, okay, mate, like Preston

:

00:57:38,725 --> 00:57:41,995

doesn't strike me as someone who's

gonna really command a room of athletes.

:

00:57:42,895 --> 00:57:45,480

But then he mentioned that, oh

yeah, we've got the FBI and NASA

:

00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:47,815

and the Navy Seals and all these.

:

00:57:47,965 --> 00:57:50,095

I'm like, oh, I, I'd

love to go to that room.

:

00:57:50,125 --> 00:57:53,575

And then once I was in there, it

blew my mind that I was in the

:

00:57:53,575 --> 00:57:56,425

room with these people and that

I was just learning so much.

:

00:57:56,425 --> 00:58:01,885

It was such a refreshing change from a

lot of the traditional sports conferences.

:

00:58:02,455 --> 00:58:05,275

And it's because a lot of the stuff we

just talked about today, like people

:

00:58:05,275 --> 00:58:11,155

dealing with real shit and no room for

feel good stuff often, and it's played

:

00:58:11,155 --> 00:58:13,945

me a hundred percent better at what I do.

:

00:58:14,545 --> 00:58:18,355

And more importantly, it's for

people who do really important jobs.

:

00:58:18,415 --> 00:58:19,945

So I just wanna say, thanks for having me.

:

00:58:20,335 --> 00:58:22,055

Thanks for teaching me and

thanks for doing what you do.

:

00:58:22,255 --> 00:58:23,105

Harry: No worries at all mate.

:

00:58:23,295 --> 00:58:25,869

We're all on that journey together,

but hopefully we'll catch up and

:

00:58:25,869 --> 00:58:27,309

have a beer in person soon, mate.

:

00:58:27,959 --> 00:58:29,759

Preston: Thank you again for

listening to our team cast.

:

00:58:30,299 --> 00:58:33,089

If you found value in this discussion,

the best way to support our work and

:

00:58:33,089 --> 00:58:36,149

assure you don't miss future episodes as

to describe and leave us a quick grading

:

00:58:36,149 --> 00:58:39,899

or review and help us reach more people

who need to hear these conversations.

:

00:58:40,139 --> 00:58:43,379

For more on Mission Critical Team

Institute, including all of our episodes

:

00:58:43,379 --> 00:58:45,689

and show notes, visit mission cti.com.

:

00:58:45,749 --> 00:58:48,749

You can also connect with us on

LinkedIn, and if you're a mission

:

00:58:48,749 --> 00:58:51,539

critical team looking to learn more

about our programs, reach out directly

:

00:58:51,539 --> 00:58:53,039

to our director of operations, Ms.

:

00:58:53,179 --> 00:58:54,679

Janese Jackson, at janese@missioncti.com.

:

00:58:56,459 --> 00:58:57,399

That's J-A-N-E-S-E@missioncti.com.

:

00:59:00,929 --> 00:59:02,579

Until next time, thanks.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania