Episode 5

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Published on:

9th Mar 2026

S6 Ep5 The Fourth Generation of Military Special Operations Selection & Assessment

In this episode of the Teamcast, Dr. Preston Cline and Dr. Art Finch discuss MCTI's most recent paper, “The Fourth Generation of Military Special Operations Selection and Assessment". Thanks to our collaborative inquiry community, we've received feedback and observations from special operations team members across the Five Eyes. Preston and Art reflect on that feedback and contrast the historical “psychological model” with rites-of-passage approaches. They cover the effort to sustain force numbers while still selecting the cognitively diverse candidates teams need. They discuss the balance between tacit knowledge and psychological science, and the need to avoid pendulum swings where either side dominates. You'll also hear what causes programs to erode unless leaders manage change intentionally.

  1. Read and download the mentioned paper here: https://missioncti.com/resources/

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Transcript
Preston:

Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to the Teamcast.

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This is Dr.

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Preston Cline.

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Today I am joined by Dr.

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Art Finch.

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And we are going to be discussing,

my recent paper, called The Fourth

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Generation of Military Special

Operations Selection and Assessment.

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It is located on our website.

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You can go there and download it.

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And since writing it, we've had some

really constructive and positive

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feedback and not only did we wanna talk

about the article, but the feedback

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has made me realize there was a bunch

of things that are fairly obvious

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that I didn't include in the paper.

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And upon reflection should have there are

things that need to get said out loud.

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And then since then I've gone to see

the, basically the last selection

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of the five eyes that I had to view.

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And so now I've seen in all five

countries, UK, US, Canada, Australia,

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New Zealand, I've seen all of

the units', selection of special

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operations or some part of it.

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And so I now have an opportunity

to look back on all these things.

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The reason I brought Art in to talk

about this question with me is because

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Art was one of the very first people

I met in all of this, and going

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back in time to when Art was in the

military, we met because I was going

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in just to look at instructor cadre.

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What my research is on primarily

is on the tacit knowledge

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transfer problem and on education.

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And so my main focus was, figuring out

how instructor cadre can get better

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at sort of helping people understand

what right looks like and feels like.

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But quickly what happens is when you're

in that business and you're, you're

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sitting next to cadre that are working

with students, you ask the question,

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where do these students come from?

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Like, why these students?

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And then what happens is you get pulled

into the world of selection, which is a.

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Wild world.

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And this is 2007 because at that time in

some teams around the world, primarily

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the US because the US uses more psychology

than a lot of the other countries do,

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there was this really strong tension

in some cases between the instructor

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cadre and the psychologists, which was

the birth of this idea for this paper.

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Art, I'm gonna bring you in and just

because I remember when I first met you,

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where you were working one of my first

questions to you is help me understand

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what's going on with these guys.

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Like, I don't quite get it.

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So Art, thanks for coming in.

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Art: It's an honor to be here.

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Preston.

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I'll never forget that first conversation.

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I had an office co-located

with the JAG, which , is always

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kind of an interesting layout.

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The one office that nobody

wants to be seen and going in

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or out of for either reason.

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But there we were.

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And a good friend of ours came in

and introduced you and said, I don't

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understand these people either, but

Art will help you figure it out.

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And then he laughed and

walked back out the door.

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And I, I remember just sitting down and

it began a conversation about how in the

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world we end up with this place with the

most amazing, unusual, unique group of

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human beings that has been assembled.

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And then trying to make

sense of how we got there.

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And I'm so grateful for your work on

this paper and just the thoughtful.

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Consideration of those processes

and how we can make them better.

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Because the world keeps moving forward.

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There are so many advances in

technology and tactics, so many lessons

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learned from two decades of armed

combat that all inform this process.

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And it's really, I think that we're

at a key transition point right

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now in how these mission critical

teams and special operations

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teams operate on the global stage.

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Which is going to necessitate some changes

in philosophy and perspective, and some

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of that's gonna happen organically.

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How much better if we can do it

deliberately and more effectively.

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And so I really appreciate the

thoughts that you lay out in this

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paper and encourage people to

download a copy and read it for

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themself and see what they think.

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Preston: Thank you.

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Yeah I agree.

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And, and I think about

those early days a lot.

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And just to give the audience, you

know, one of the things that Art

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and I, I hope we will touch on today

is when do you change a selection?

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' Cause Art just referenced it, and it's

not an obvious answer quite honestly,

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because the question is, could the guys

in World War II be effective today,

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even with all the technology change?

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And , the answer is, some of them

could, some of them couldn't.

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And what we have to determine

is what are those cases?

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They couldn't?

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Why?

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What's going on?

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And like I said, as we get into

it, you'll see that some of

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the nuance here really matters.

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What I do wanna do is I want to just

start off by saying the things I should

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have said in the paper that I didn't,

and I will include in the next paper, and

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I'm gonna frame it in the following way.

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So this paper basically deals with

two major models, historical models,

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which I call the psychological

model and the rites of passage or

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rites of passage assessment model.

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The psychological model comes

out of the early:

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Germany and then Britain and the UK.

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And it was done, designed

and led by a psychologist

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but at the same time, there were

other teams that were acting more of

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tribes, more of a rite of passage,

an anthropological rite of passage,

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which is if you can demonstrate

that you have what it takes to join

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our club, you can join our club.

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And we, as the elders of

that tribe will decide.

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And what ended up happening, around 1988

is those sort of collided, those two

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systems collided and created some tension.

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And in that negotiation of which

is better and which is worse,

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we tend to forget some things.

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And here are the two

things I should have said.

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The first is, that I make a

statement in here that selection

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is about being revelatory.

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It's about choosing the

right guys for the team.

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Let me back up one step.

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Selection is about producing

enough people to sustain the team.

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Full stop.

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Forget about all the like psychology

and the rites of passage and

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the culture and the tribes and

the Tridents and the berets.

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Forget all that for a second.

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Selection and assessment, ultimately,

at the end of the day, have to produce

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X number of bodies to sustain the

teams, or the teams will go in decline.

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And that's actually happening worldwide.

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We'll talk about this where legacy has

become more important than the mission,

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and as a result, they're not producing the

numbers they need to sustain themselves.

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That's a very dangerous place to be.

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And the second thing I wanted to

say is, and this was pointed out

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to us by one of our colleagues.

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And this, this horrified me

because I never wanna be this guy.

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I'm actually anti this guy.

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But he pointed out that as I make this

more explicit, these models for how to

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do this, I shouldn't get so smug that

I forget that we still need savages.

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We still need misfits

and juvenile delinquents

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. A nicer, more academic way to say that is

that we still require a significant amount

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of neurodiversity or cognitive diversity.

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And part of that is that we don't

have a really great measure for that.

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And so we shouldn't be so clever

that we end up with this really nice

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bell curve that produces just the

optimal candidate without variance of

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allowing in for the, say, the weird.

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So Art, I'll throw it over to you.

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But those were the two big things that

I realized I should have said out loud.

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Art: Absolutely Preston and, and I

failed to explain The whole reason that

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you and I met was I spent my 23 year

career as a psychologist in the US Army.

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I spent my first three years as a clinical

psychologist working in hospitals,

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and then fell down the wonderful weird

rabbit hole of special operations doing

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assessment and selection and leadership

development and team optimization, and

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all of the other things that get put

under the umbrella term of operational

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psychology within the military.

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I was the command psychologist at

one of the units that Preston was

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visiting as he entered into this world.

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That's why we were linked up was because

I was kind of the keeper of the keys at

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the time for that particular organization,

for all things psychological and got

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some of it right and some of it wrong,

and learned a lot of lessons along

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the way that we continue to share.

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So I absolutely agree, Preston, that,

you know, if you, if you take too

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scientific of an approach and you just

end up with a bell curve of the Stepford.

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Perfect candidate, then you are going

to run into issues that the, that a more

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diverse approach would otherwise offer.

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And over the years I've had

the opportunity to participate

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in a large number of selection

programs across the federal space

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and across the military space.

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And even civilian law enforcement

and the programs that get it right

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are the ones that have the most

balanced fusion between the two.

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That allow the cadre lived experience

and expertise to be appropriately and

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meshed with real psychological findings

and results on psychological assessments

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and the wisdom that that provides.

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And they are more likely to get the right

candidates, and avoid hiring the wrong

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candidates and wasting time and effort

and hopes and dreams and all of that.

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So I remember distinctly back in the

:

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push across Army Special Operations

looking at performance statistics

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and predictive analytics and using

machine learning to predict which

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candidates were most likely to fail

and which were most likely to succeed.

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And we spent a year pulling

in all kinds of archival data,

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putting it into spreadsheets.

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And we had a brilliant research

psychologist who happened to be

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part of our team at the time who

understood machine learning and started

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running some basic machine learning

algorithms and using artificial

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intelligence to predict who was

gonna succeed and who was gonna fail.

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And there was a change of command out

at Camp McCall where we run the core

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special operations assessment and

selection for the Army for Special

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forces psychological operations, civil

affairs, and related type endeavors.

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And there was a change of command for the

leadership out at Camp McCall that ran

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all of the boards and led the decision

making on most of those processes.

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And we came in with our dog and pony

show and all of our chArts and all of

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our statistics and all of our findings,

and we laid it all out and ran through

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every candidate and gave 'em cutoff scores

and sat back to bask in the glory of it.

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And this new commander, he sat there

thoughtfully and it just, the silence

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just hung pregnant, it felt like forever.

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It was probably only 10 seconds.

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It felt like 10 minutes.

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And he sits up and he goes, I've

been told since the change of

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command that I'm the commander here.

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And that would suggest that somewhere

along the lines, some faith has been

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put in me to make the best decisions

for this organization moving forward.

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And I see absolutely nowhere

in this process my opportunity

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to be that decision maker.

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So I'm gonna ask you to leave and

come back when you figured out how

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to keep the human in the science.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Art: And it was such a pivotal

learning moment for me.

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Because I've learned

those lessons over time.

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I'd sat on thousands of

boards at that point.

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And a lot of times it

was personality driven.

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Preston: Yep.

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Art: How well that balance was executed,

we call it the art of feedback to

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the board because depending on the

flavor of the board and the makeup

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of the personalities that were on

it, as a psychologist, we had to be

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very careful how we framed things.

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If we came in too hot and too overbearing,

then invariably a sergeant major

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would be like, well, the psychs are

taking too much control of the board,

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and we need to have some say in it.

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And sometimes we would be asked

to leave or asked to only share

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straight up observations and no

opinions or professional conclusions.

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And really, wisdom and experience came

from getting scuffed up many times

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over the years and figuring out the

art of finding that balance and helping

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organizations find that balance.

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And it was a painful memory to sit in

that room and have that commander kick

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us out because we had overcorrected,

we had leaned in too hard on the things

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that we understood, the language that

we spoke, and we had left him and his

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cadre out of the process at that point.

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Preston: So just a couple of terms for our

audience, when we talk about psychologists

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or we talk about, instructor cadre.

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What they're technically called

is communities of practice.

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They're a group of people who have

a particular expertise that focus

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and create language around and

experience around a particular thing.

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When you put communities of

practice together and you, you

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orient them towards actually doing

something in concert, it becomes a

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community of Praxis, P-R-A-X-I-S.

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And this paper is recommending the blend

of the communities of practice that

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actually get us what we want to do.

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As an outsider, because my

background is in education, I

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have seen what Art's talking about

around the world multiple times.

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But not only that, in this research

that I did on this paper, it turns out

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that when the Germans first did it,

what they were trying to do is they're

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trying to balance the aristocracy.

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The Prussians, on one hand that used

to control the officer corps, and the

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rising Nazi party on the other hand.

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And what they wanted was a middle

lane that would keep them independent.

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And so it just so happened that

in:

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for experimental psychology was

created in Leipzig, Germany.

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And so they had all these out

of work, psychologists around.

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They're like, let's get those guys in.

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But you gotta remember that

psychologists come from the university.

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They're not military people.

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They have not been indoctrinated into the

military, and they think a very particular

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way, which is why they're desirable.

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They're outside thinkers.

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They're not bought into , the Kool-Aid.

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And so what happens is this gets repeated

or the UK, for the British in:

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and then again in the OSS and in all

three cases, once they create enough

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operators who had gone out and gone to

combat and come back as instructor cadre

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who felt true ownership of what the

role and the job and the culture was.

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One of the first things that happened

is the psychologist got fired.

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In , all three cases.

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And what I've seen is this, over the

years, this pendulum swing between when

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the cadre get full authority it goes bad.

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And I'll explain why that is.

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But when the psychologists get

too much power, that also goes

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sideways and actually some very

historical and predictable ways.

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And the reason, one of the reasons I wrote

this paper is I was just tired of it.

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I was like, guys, let's just.

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Why don't we all just

collectively acknowledge that

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our strength is our weakness?

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You'll pursue your strength

so far as it will destroy you.

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So how about we try to create some

mechanisms to balance those tensions

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as opposed to having them at war with

each other be fuel for creativity.

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And so I wanted to say all that back

so that the audience has had the place

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to go, but also to know this isn't

unique to individuals or personalities.

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These are cultures that, that

are intention with each other.

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Art: Agreed.

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I remember you made me think

of a conversation I had in,

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in the middle of Afghanistan.

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I was the psychologist for the 75th

Ranger Regiment at the time, and I

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was deployed and one of the commanders

I was working with is, at the time,

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Colonel Paul LaCamera and we were

having a very in-depth conversation

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one night about this very topic, about

how heavy of a hand psychologist should

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play in the decision making process.

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And I don't know if Paul LaCamera is

the person who came up with this saying,

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but this was the first time I heard it

and he said doc, I just want to know

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if they're in the Band of Excellence.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Art: And I have all kinds of time

for differences once I know that

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they're in that band of excellence.

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I love the reframing that,

that provided for me as an

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academic and as a psychologist.

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Being able to think about the fact

that all of my lovely statistical

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norms and scientific theories can

help define some of those boundaries.

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But so did the cadres.

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And that the combination of the

two help us end up with this bolus

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of individuals, any one of whom

theoretically could be the right person.

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Yeah.

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With lots of room for variability and

diversity within that how that ended

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up playing in reality often differed.

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But theoretically it was a nice way to

reframe it, and I've always appreciated

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that construct of the band of excellence.

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Preston: I had these similar experiences

right throughout my research over

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the last almost 20 years now.

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I was down with Naval Special Warfare

looking at one of their selections

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and I was at the time, not a fan,

and I'm still challenged by it; I

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have complex thoughts about it, but

the day one physical fitness test.

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So every team has a day one

physical fitness test, and many of

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them, it is a go/no-go decision.

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So if you don't pass

that, you're going home.

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And the rationale is, is there's an

opportunity, see if you can prepare.

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My problem with that is

that's not quite accurate.

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Meaning that if a officer is, say,

working for a four-star general,

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there is no time to prepare.

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Their life is not their own.

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Or if they have the flu or their mom

dies, there's a bunch of reasons where

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that 20-30% that we see worldwide

of failures on day one PFT, is not

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just because of lack of preparation.

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It could be a variety of things.

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And so I just personally think

it's not the greatest tool because

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the one thing I know that I can

improve are pushups and situps.

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That's the one thing I know

I could actually control for.

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So it doesn't seem like

a good metric to me.

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And then one of the guys turns to me, who

was frustrated with me because culturally,

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it's very important to the teams.

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Like it's sacred.

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Because they all had to do it and

you have to do it to show us that

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you're thinking about your heads in

the game and you want to be here.

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And he turns to me and he says,

Preston, let me ask you a question.

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That kid who, who fell out day one at

PFT, what if they were just unlucky?

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Shouldn't we be testing for luck?

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And can you have a measurement for luck?

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And I realized in that moment

that all cultures, they work

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in the extraordinary world.

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They work in life and death and there

are things about that science has

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yet to really understand and that we

need to leave room for those things.

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And he was right.

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I couldn't measure it.

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And luck is a thing even

if I can't explain it.

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And that's always been a really good

humbling thing for me to say, don't get so

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clever, Preston, that you outthink luck.

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Art: A hundred percent.

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And something else that I would add

to that is that PT test, it's come

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to hold value for me over the years,

even though I've been required to

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do that several times for different

selection programs throughout my career.

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And I love running, but I absolutely hate

running as fast as I can for two miles.

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I think it's ridiculous.

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I would never do that on purpose.

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However, over time I came to

value that initial PT test as the

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last point for a graceful exit.

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Preston: Yeah.

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Art: For somebody who had

other complications in life.

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Their wife was just diagnosed

with something, their husband

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just found out he had to deploy.

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Any number of reasons why people who

signed up for something with the best

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intentions suddenly find themself

in less than ideal circumstances.

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And it creates an opportunity

to not voluntarily withdraw.

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And therefore never be allowed to come

back, which is often a standing policy

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for these selection programs, but to fail

and be given a chance to try again in the

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future when circumstances might be right.

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And it also allows them to create a

mythology around how that exit happened.

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Oh, they didn't count all my pushups.

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I did all of 'em.

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But the grader was just being a jerk.

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Yeah.

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They're just being gatekeepers or

whatever mythology they needed to

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create to live with themself as they

prepared for the next opportunity.

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Preston: What's really interesting about

that right, is that that's a great example

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of a blend of psychology and culture.

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And psychology and existential

identity and tribe.

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And this idea that it's not just about

the numbers, but it's also about who

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that person is in that moment and who

they're becoming and what decisions

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they need to make in that moment.

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One of the things that I, wrote

was why do we do selection?

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That's the first question and some

teams don't, this is important

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for people to understand.

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Some teams have a selection

model, which is just a training

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model where there is attrition.

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So in other words, you don't

show up to do a seven day

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selection before you do training.

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You just go into training.

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:

And if you make it to the

end of training, you're in.

372

:

Or you get voted on, decide if you're in.

373

:

And so that's more of an attrition model.

374

:

And , by the way, from 1952 to 1988,

that was the Green Beret model.

375

:

That was a, it was a model of attrition.

376

:

It was a training model where as

long as you did pretty well and

377

:

got to the end of it, you were

probably gonna get a Green Beret.

378

:

It wasn't until 1988 that they reintroduce

psychological assessment, permanently.

379

:

And so what I will say is, that the

reason that you wanna do selection

380

:

is selection is a revelatory process.

381

:

It is to select, and

training is not to select.

382

:

Training is to train and develop.

383

:

The big mistake that most teams make

when they get frustrated, or the

384

:

sort of cadre feels though they've

lost power, is that they'll use

385

:

training as a second selection.

386

:

So if we're just doing a

selection and doing it properly,

387

:

it's a revelatory experience.

388

:

And that is to say, it's to

reveal the candidate to the cadre.

389

:

Do we want them?

390

:

It's also to reveal the candidate

to themselves, to really look at

391

:

themselves sitting in search, torture

or BUDS and go, do I really want this?

392

:

Can I do this?

393

:

Like, is this really part of me?

394

:

And then it's to reveal

the tribe to the candidate.

395

:

Do I want to hang out with these folks?

396

:

Are these people that I want

to go to war with or not?

397

:

And those three things really matter

in selection, and all of them matter.

398

:

And too often we are too

fixated on the, do we want them,

399

:

that we forget the other two.

400

:

Art: That's one of those things

that is not as explicitly stated in

401

:

this paper, which a couple of very

thoughtful individuals provided

402

:

some feedback highlighting this.

403

:

And it's funny because it's something that

we understand and talk about enough that

404

:

we just kind of tacitly understand it.

405

:

But yet we failed to

highlight that specifically.

406

:

So I think it's really, that's an

incredibly important point that you're

407

:

making, that all three of those things

and then a whole bunch of subtext around

408

:

all of them are involved in that process.

409

:

Preston: A hundred percent.

410

:

So now the mechanism, so now

you've got this person, you've

411

:

decided to do a selection.

412

:

What are you actually looking at?

413

:

You're gonna make them go

through a series of events.

414

:

And basically the way they, that,

that broke out is that traits,

415

:

attributes, and aptitudes.

416

:

And these are all personality

characteristics or

417

:

physical characteristics.

418

:

And these matter, because often when

you hear people in debates about

419

:

selection, they're often mixing up

these terms or they're overstretching

420

:

the strength of the terms.

421

:

And so traits are consistent

patterns of behavior.

422

:

If you've taken a NEO, if you've

taken a personality index it, any

423

:

of that stuff, that's what that is.

424

:

It's predictive things.

425

:

We've looked at agreeableness

conscientiousness, things that we

426

:

can measure pretty predictably.

427

:

What the last 20 years of war taught

us, however, is that they are not as

428

:

permanent or predictive as we thought.

429

:

They still are for the majority,

but there are times where major life

430

:

events will actually move the needle

on that, and that people evolve.

431

:

They change over 20 years.

432

:

The second one is attributes and

the difference between traits and

433

:

attributes, even though they get

often mingled, they are different.

434

:

Traits are measurable, quantitatively

can put a number to them.

435

:

Attributes are like singing

ability or sense of humor or

436

:

attitude or trust or courage.

437

:

These are things you

can't put a number to.

438

:

Well, no one gets a seven for courage.

439

:

That's not the way it works, right?

440

:

And so what that means is

that they're qualitative.

441

:

They are observed either directly or

the absence of them becomes apparent.

442

:

That is something where that's a cultural

factor, meaning that particular tribe

443

:

lie, cheats and steals a certain way.

444

:

And special operations, I'm not

exaggerating, they are designed

445

:

to lie, cheat, and steal.

446

:

It is their job to do bad things,

to make problems for the enemy.

447

:

But there are boundaries around that.

448

:

There are boundaries of what is right

and what is wrong, but not all of

449

:

them can be reduced to mathematics.

450

:

Some people will tell you they

are, I would argue vehemently they

451

:

cannot, and they're misleading you.

452

:

But what we can do is create some

really interesting qualitative

453

:

assessments that can get you really

good data, which is really the

454

:

collective voice of the instructor,

cadre representatives or elders of the

455

:

tribe saying, Hey, yeah, this person

meets our definition of weird enough.

456

:

And then the last one, and I'll turn

it over to, to Art is aptitudes.

457

:

And aptitudes are simply

like, can you run fast?

458

:

Can you swim fast?

459

:

Can you do these things?

460

:

And so, and the, the hard truth is this,

Preston Cline no matter how much heart I

461

:

have, will never be a ballet superstar.

462

:

Right?

463

:

Art will tell me, not with that attitude.

464

:

But no legitimately, even with the right

attitude, it's not gonna happen for me.

465

:

Opera's out too, by the way.

466

:

I was not born with that range

of vocals and no amount of

467

:

training getting them for me.

468

:

And so we often, we get tied up in the

"Rudy"s of the world, the people who have

469

:

all the heart in the world, and you would

work on a team with them every single

470

:

day, but they can't get across the finish

line under the time you need 'em to.

471

:

All of this matters because selections,

if done well, are a microcosm

472

:

of the temporal and stressful

environment of the actual mission.

473

:

So let me say that again.

474

:

A selection designed well is a mimic

of the actual experience you'll have

475

:

out on the x out on the mission.

476

:

So you have to be able to learn

fast enough, move fast enough, work

477

:

together, communicate fast enough

at the same rate of learning, rate

478

:

of communication that will occur

on the X or you can't do the job.

479

:

Full stop.

480

:

As the world gets more, even

technologically complex, and we'll talk

481

:

about when do you change selection, this

starts to become actual real pressure on

482

:

some selections now because it's starting

to change the kind of person that's being

483

:

required to go to places like Ukraine.

484

:

Art: Agreed.

485

:

I had a thought come to mind when you

were talking about the qualitative

486

:

nature of attributes and that really

a lot of the reason it's so hard to

487

:

quantify is because it's so often

traits bound in a current context.

488

:

Preston: Yeah.

489

:

And the culture.

490

:

Art: Right.

491

:

And the culture.

492

:

And so I, I could have somebody

who has a great sense of humor,

493

:

but being a comedian at a funeral

is the wrong context for that.

494

:

Preston: Yeah.

495

:

Art: And, one additional powerful

component of the most effective selection

496

:

programs is when the candidates live on

top of, with, and around, and beneath

497

:

each other for at least a week, and

then the program uses peer evaluations.

498

:

Preston: Yep.

499

:

Art: Because you end up with an

interesting reflection of not only the

500

:

lived experience of the other candidates

in the room, this is what it was like

501

:

to interact with this human being.

502

:

Yes, I could drive across country

with this guy and not kill

503

:

him by the time we got there.

504

:

And it's also them trying to wear a

lens which is evolving over the course

505

:

of selection on what they believe this

culture is that they're trying to join.

506

:

Preston: Yeah.

507

:

Art: And what they believe the attributes

are that will be valued and what they

508

:

believe right looks like from their,

I'm not in the organization yet, but I

509

:

really want to be, here's what I thought

it was when I started a week later.

510

:

This is now what I think.

511

:

And all of that weighs in on trying to

capture and catalog and categorize the

512

:

attributes and put a number of, at least a

class ranking on their fellow classmates.

513

:

And so you just made me think of the

whole peer process and how important

514

:

that can be as part of the capturing

that piece of the individuals living

515

:

with other individuals under that

microscope and all of the agreed

516

:

different tendrils that sneak into that.

517

:

Preston: We advocate a lot for peer

reviews, and the only caveat that I will

518

:

say to anyone's listening is, just as a

reminder, don't ever collect bad data.

519

:

And here's what I mean by that.

520

:

Let's say there's 20

people in selection, right?

521

:

And I'm spending most of my time

on a team with Art and a couple of

522

:

other people, but I've never spent

any time with Fred, Joe, and Harry.

523

:

Don't ask me to rate Fred, Joe, and

Harry because you just get bad data.

524

:

What they're gonna do is put a seven

and then you'll get a bunch of sevens

525

:

that don't mean anything, but actually

come to cause problems at the board

526

:

because that ends up as a number.

527

:

And so really make sure you're doing

peer assessments on people that have

528

:

actually spent time with each other.

529

:

My other Thing is a friend of, Art

and mine who passed away a few years

530

:

ago was a guy named Bill Dean, and

he was one of the persons that helped

531

:

me write my first articles for JSOC.

532

:

And he was in special operations

at a very elite level.

533

:

And I was getting pushed by some

psychologists to adopt a particular

534

:

frame of attributes that had

been studied for many years.

535

:

And it was Bill's, team's attributes.

536

:

And so I went to Bill because they said,

look, there's 40 years of data here.

537

:

It's a good data set.

538

:

Just use those attributes and then

we can benchmark 'em off that data.

539

:

And there was some allergic reaction,

there was some hesitation within me.

540

:

So I went and took a long walk with

Bill Dean and Bill said, here's

541

:

the problem that you're having.

542

:

, Let's say, our attributes were

honor, courage, and commitment.

543

:

We evaluated honor, courage, and

commitment very differently from a

544

:

bunch of farm boys from Idaho going

to Vietnam than we do for a modern

545

:

day kid from New Jersey going to Iraq.

546

:

And it sounds like they should be

the same, but there just aren't.

547

:

Time changes, values

changes, complexity changes.

548

:

So even though they're the same

attributes, they're not, in some ways

549

:

'cause they get interpreted by each

generation a little bit differently.

550

:

Is that fair Art?

551

:

Art: Yeah.

552

:

Completely agree with that.

553

:

Yep.

554

:

Preston: Let's talk about attrition.

555

:

So a lot of teams make the mistake

that their job is to create attrition

556

:

because it's a selection program.

557

:

There's a couple of different ways

that people attrit out of selection.

558

:

And I'm gonna just give 'em to you.

559

:

There's drops on requests or

voluntary withdraws, and that's a

560

:

person says, not for me, can't do it.

561

:

Whatever.

562

:

There's injury or a medical drop or a

personnel issue drop that is, Hey man,

563

:

I broke something or My family's broke.

564

:

I gotta go.

565

:

There is straight up failures.

566

:

So a failure could be it could be a safety

thing, it could be a, it could be a.

567

:

A misfire, it could be a muzzling, it

could be unsafe, it could just be you're

568

:

not doing the things we need you to do.

569

:

Then at the end of selection, there's

often a vote, not always, but in some

570

:

selection programs at the end of it not

everybody who makes through get selected.

571

:

There's a board.

572

:

And in some cases there are just

nonselects; people who've made it

573

:

through selection but aren't selected.

574

:

And then the last one happens later,

which is that people are selected but

575

:

then fail out of the follow on schools.

576

:

And what we often see with that is

when selections become just beat downs,

577

:

they become less intellectual and less

screening for intellectual capabilities.

578

:

And then we see a more of a greater

attrition in the follow on schools.

579

:

Teams and individuals.

580

:

So candidates and the teams are better

off in a drop on request scenario.

581

:

Everyone is better

served by that scenario.

582

:

It's better for your marketing.

583

:

It's better for your word of mouth.

584

:

It's better for that individual

and better for the team.

585

:

Art, any thought on that?

586

:

Art: I agree, and I've worked with a

couple of organizations that lean in

587

:

hard on that, where even a drop on

request does not mean that you are an

588

:

individual of poor character and terrible

upbringing and can never come back.

589

:

When people know that they can take

that exit and still have an opportunity

590

:

to come back, it's a really big deal.

591

:

And the couple of programs I've seen

lean into that they, they have an

592

:

outprocessing counseling where they

express gratitude to the candidate

593

:

for showing up in the first place.

594

:

And they ask them what they learned

and they ask 'em what they would

595

:

change and if there's anything they

could have done to prevent them

596

:

feeling like they needed to leave.

597

:

And it's a very open and honest

and transparent conversation.

598

:

And the intent behind that is, one, to

learn, and help their process evolve,

599

:

but to also send that person back out

into the world saying, I didn't, I

600

:

wasn't able to stay, but I cannot wait

to get back there and you should go too.

601

:

Right.

602

:

It becomes a really powerful way to extend

culture and impact out into the bigger

603

:

organizations that these recruits come

from and these candidates come from.

604

:

Preston: I want to, shift us to towards

the two different communities of practice,

605

:

the psychologist and the instructor cadre.

606

:

Psychologists, for the most part,

represent the academy, the university

607

:

the science of the thing, and the

instructor cadre are basically

608

:

elders or representatives of the

tribe, the team that people are going

609

:

to, and they're representing the

needs and interests of the tribe.

610

:

The psychologists are often

representing the needs and

611

:

interests of the organization.

612

:

That's not always true, but

just generally speaking.

613

:

And what I've noticed after almost

20 years is depending on how much

614

:

the organization invests in both the

instructor cadre and the psychologist

615

:

will remarkably change the efficacy

or how well selection works.

616

:

For example, Art is

actually also a Ranger.

617

:

Our friend, Dr.

618

:

Morgan Banks is not only a

psychologist, but also a Green Beret.

619

:

And so when you have psychologists that

have had some experience downrange,

620

:

and that can mean a lot of things.

621

:

It can mean in surgery, in hospitals, it

can mean a lot of things, but that they

622

:

understand a little bit of the life.

623

:

It actually makes the conversations

a little bit easier and there's

624

:

a better shared understanding.

625

:

On the other side of the house, you have

teams around the world that use selection

626

:

as a professional development opportunity

where they're developing people because

627

:

doing well at instruction will make you

a better leader and therefore you became,

628

:

you get first shot at team leader or helps

you with your promotions and officers.

629

:

We often, however, we'll see teams

that use the instructor cadre as

630

:

the dumping ground for misfit toys.

631

:

And so the operators who are broken

in some way, physically, emotionally,

632

:

something going on, and the squadrons

don't want them at the moment.

633

:

The teams don't want them, but

they don't wanna fire them.

634

:

Where they'll actually sit them

is in the instructor cadre.

635

:

And that's usually a recipe for disaster.

636

:

And so those are those tensions between

getting the right psychologist and

637

:

the right instructor cadres to come

together to perform this different thing.

638

:

Art: Fortunately, in military special

operations, for the most part, this

639

:

hasn't always been the case, but for

the most part, now, psychologists are

640

:

uniform-wearing, patch-bearing members

of the organization and how well they

641

:

are integrated and accepted into that

organization often comes down to them and

642

:

how they interact with the personalities

of the tribe, the level of compatibility.

643

:

But it also is at times structural.

644

:

And this is a leadership decision

where I've seen some organizations

645

:

who have the psychologist as part of

the commander, special staff report

646

:

independently to the commander.

647

:

And those are usually where

the, I see the most balanced

648

:

between these two communities.

649

:

Because the psychologists are seen

as having an equal seat at the

650

:

table in other organizations and

by a lot of military doctrine for

651

:

toes and other things like that.

652

:

The psychologist will be aligned

under the surgeon because you're

653

:

medical, that's a medical thing,

you're a licensed medical provider.

654

:

Therefore, even though that's

maybe not what you're doing,

655

:

you belong to the surgeon.

656

:

Whenever that distinction is made

and highlighted, it ends up having

657

:

a significant impact on how that

psychologist is able to navigate

658

:

how the cadre utilized them, and

rightly somebody else in leadership

659

:

has drawn a line in the sand for them

and put some boundaries around it.

660

:

And so it's a really simple structural

thing that has a huge impact.

661

:

Preston: It's important to just

stop and note that when we're

662

:

talking about psychology in the

military, we actually mean a couple

663

:

of different kinds of psychology,

and we should say that out loud.

664

:

So historically, this falls under the

category of operational psychology.

665

:

However, operational psychologists can

come from clinical psychology, industrial

666

:

organizational psychology, performance

psychology, positive psychology.

667

:

And so what ends up happening though,

is that they are trained in slightly

668

:

different ways and they're asked

to do the same thing in some cases.

669

:

And what's important to know about

the discipline of psychology is

670

:

that it is a pathological model

traditionally, which is to say, much

671

:

like medicine, it's designed to look

at, you are broken, how can we fix you?

672

:

And as a result, what it's very

good at doing is, look, it's

673

:

finding the red candidates, the

dark red candidates you do not want.

674

:

And so a psychologist comes to you and

says, "This is a dark red candidate.

675

:

You should get 'em off the property."

676

:

You should get 'em off the property.

677

:

Where psychologists will sometimes go

wrong, but usually not for bad intentions,

678

:

simply because they want to contribute.

679

:

Is that they'll start trying to

conjecture on what Right looks like,

680

:

what a great candidate looks like.

681

:

And that's when sometimes the

wheels can come off because they're

682

:

not taking the time to ask the

cultural questions about that.

683

:

And they're, they're going a little bit

beyond their science, and that depends

684

:

entirely again on the personality,

but if we look at it just writ large,

685

:

and so I'm picking on your field Art,

so you should, you should fight back.

686

:

Art: So I, I actually do need

to fight back a little bit just

687

:

with the course correction.

688

:

Preston: Yep.

689

:

Art: Within the military, the only

psychologists in uniform who are

690

:

assigned to combat units are licensed

doctoral level psychologists.

691

:

Preston: Okay.

692

:

Art: Clinical or counseling psychologists.

693

:

Preston: Got it.

694

:

Art: So sports psychologists, industrial

organizational psychologists, other

695

:

performance type psychologists that

people that have psychologists in their

696

:

name would never be called operational

psychologists, nor would they call

697

:

themselves operational psychologists.

698

:

So just an important distinction.

699

:

Preston: Got it.

700

:

Art: Lest we create an allergic

reaction amongst people that we

701

:

really want to integrate with

and be as helpful as possible.

702

:

So that is an important distinction.

703

:

But your point about the pathology

model is a hundred percent real.

704

:

And I will say that was probably the

most rewarding part of my career shift,

705

:

going from being a clinical psychologist

to an operational psychologist.

706

:

It took a few years of readjusting my lens

from one that was looking for pathology

707

:

to one that was looking for health.

708

:

And trying to figure out how to

capitalize on it and optimize it

709

:

rather than just see what was wrong and

highlight that and get rid of it, cut

710

:

it out, or try and be helpful to it.

711

:

Now, that's not to say that there

weren't problems that showed up.

712

:

Human beings or human beings,

life gets complicated, right?

713

:

So there were plenty of times that

there my beret was tilted in a clinical

714

:

direction, but that wasn't necessarily

the role that I was there for.

715

:

And I've been eternally grateful

for that transition from a pathology

716

:

model to a more of a health

and positive psychology model.

717

:

Preston: So I really appreciate the

correction because it brought up

718

:

a thing that now I just realized.

719

:

The reason I said, what I said was

that every once in a while I get the

720

:

opportunity internationally to sit

and observe boards, selection boards.

721

:

And over the last say 10 to 20 years,

we've seen the rise of human performance.

722

:

And with the rise of human performance,

we've seen the rise of performance

723

:

psychologists, sports psychologists,

and because now what we're often seeing

724

:

is human performance folks are being

brought to the boards and they are

725

:

speaking both as human performance, but

also in some cases as psychologists.

726

:

I had not realized that differentiation

that you're talking about, because

727

:

as an observer, it's hard to tell the

difference between what they're saying

728

:

and the clinical psychologists next

to them are saying, and that's sort of

729

:

part of the point of this discussion,

which is there is right now some.

730

:

Ambiguity on all of the people

that want to be of service to our

731

:

folks that go from chaplains to

human preformance to psychologists,

732

:

to social workers, to coaches.

733

:

And there is confusion as to what

everyone's role is, who can be

734

:

effective and why they can be effective.

735

:

And when perhaps that's not the person

you actually want to be talking to.

736

:

Is that a fair sort of explanation?

737

:

Art: Yes.

738

:

And you highlight a really important

and valid point because when you

739

:

talk about communities of practice,

you just described multiple

740

:

communities of practice that are

under that umbrella of psychologist.

741

:

Preston: Yeah.

742

:

Art: And there is just as much opportunity

for collaboration as well as dissent

743

:

and barriers between all of those

communities of practice within psychology.

744

:

The most successful organizations that

I've seen that have the best integration

745

:

with psychologists using that term

loosely and in an encompassing way, are

746

:

the ones where the psychologists within

that practice have successfully navigated

747

:

and resolved any tribal issues around

their individual communities of practice.

748

:

Preston: Yep.

749

:

Art: And it tends to be more integrated

and more involved and it's very healthy.

750

:

When I see a lot of stove piping and

people vehemently defending their

751

:

role within their lane versus figuring

out how to integrate and play well

752

:

with others, then it, it creates a

lot of drama that end ends up being

753

:

reflected in that division between

the cadre and the psychologists.

754

:

And I get why it's confusing because most

of the time if you say psychologist, if

755

:

you are well liked, you'll be called Doc.

756

:

Yeah.

757

:

Like, it's a term of endearment and

I think that's a very healthy thing.

758

:

. And so it can certainly be confusing

and it, if it's confusing to you as an

759

:

outside observer, it's probably equally

confusing for a lot of the people who

760

:

are gunslingers sitting on the board who

have to make some of these decisions.

761

:

So it's a really valid observation.

762

:

Preston: I know how things are going

with a team because if they say Hey

763

:

doc, it's a, it's a, an affirming

thing, but if they say, look, professor,

764

:

that's usually not an affirming thing.

765

:

So, um, it's these little things

that you learn like check.

766

:

I see where I am on the board right now.

767

:

But let's just talk technically right

now about the differences between

768

:

these two, community practice,

instructor cadre and psychologist.

769

:

One is where they source their

knowledge and just think big.

770

:

Now for a second, psychologists source

their knowledge from what's called Latin

771

:

a priori, which is to say, knowledge

that can be expressed through writing.

772

:

It can be written down and shared.

773

:

Instructor cadre primarily as

we've discussed, have tacit

774

:

knowledge or a posterari.

775

:

I can never say it right, but it's that

knowledge that comes from experience.

776

:

And this matters because that kind

of knowledge gets communicated two

777

:

different ways, the emic and the etic.

778

:

When the psychologists are

like, well, I think he has a 0.5

779

:

on this scale, right?

780

:

The psychologists are talking

in an etic language, which is

781

:

that person's the top quartile.

782

:

That's an etic language.

783

:

Emic language is "I don't

like the shape of his head."

784

:

Or "I don't let the sound of his voice".

785

:

They're not really saying that.

786

:

That's code for a variety of other things,

but it comes across as dumb, it comes

787

:

across as illiterate and uninformed.

788

:

At MCTI, we spend a lot of time trying

to get cadre their own language so

789

:

they can express in an emmic way their,

what we call funds of knowledge, their

790

:

collective experience, their lived

experience that is actually really valid

791

:

and really important, but sometimes can

lead them astray if it's not interrogated.

792

:

And so just like the academic

knowledge that has to get interrogated,

793

:

so does the tacit knowledge.

794

:

It can't just be like, oh, I know what

right looks like and that guy sucks.

795

:

Well, no, 'cause there's a whole

bunch of biases in there that

796

:

you're not paying attention to, but

sometimes you're absolutely right.

797

:

And that's the tricky part of it.

798

:

Art: Agreed and referencing

my comment earlier about the

799

:

Art of feedback to boards.

800

:

The most successful psychologists are

the ones that figured out a shared

801

:

language or how to use the phraseology

and terminology to discuss the things

802

:

they were seeing rather than quartiles

and percentiles and sequelae, and

803

:

a lot of other scientific jargon.

804

:

These are very bright people,

but that's not the language

805

:

that they use on a daily basis.

806

:

Preston: And now I wanna talk, Art,

about when both models go off the

807

:

rails and they both go off the rails

for different reasons, but if left

808

:

unsupervised, they will go off the rails.

809

:

And I've been picking on the

psychs first, so I'm gonna pick

810

:

on the instructor cadre this time.

811

:

And we see that, that there's a couple of

different ways in which instructor cadres.

812

:

We'll have some real problems.

813

:

And the first is excellence creep.

814

:

We've all heard of that, and that

is that you have to remember that

815

:

in most cases, the instructor

cadre are not permanent staff.

816

:

They're rotated in on a, on like

a 12 month to 18 month, 24 month

817

:

basis, and then rotated out.

818

:

It may be that the last time that

they observed selection was when

819

:

they themselves were in selection and

they're coming being like, okay, I'm

820

:

choosing someone to go to war with me.

821

:

This person has to be amazing.

822

:

And they have what's called memory bias.

823

:

In their mind, their selection

was the hardest thing they've

824

:

ever done, so therefore their this

selection should be harder, right?

825

:

So instead of there being need to be

20 pull-ups, that person, that's the

826

:

minimum they really should be doing 22.

827

:

And so you see this little excellence

creep until no one can complete it

828

:

because no one can actually achieve

those things except this one super

829

:

human who's kind of a sociopath.

830

:

So you have to be really careful of that.

831

:

The other two things that happens is

that one of the, one of the big lies

832

:

that gets told in special operations

is this, Hey, you've been overseas,

833

:

you've been on combat, you've been

going through all these things.

834

:

Come back to the schoolhouse and

you'll have some time with your family.

835

:

And it's the biggest lie

because that's not what happens.

836

:

What happens is they're home long

enough to do their laundry and

837

:

disrupt the family life, right?

838

:

. And then they're at the schoolhouse

working crazy hours under

839

:

tremendous stress doing a job

they don't feel confident in.

840

:

So it's kind of a miserable time.

841

:

And that gets actually taken out

on the sort of the candidates.

842

:

And then what happens is that those things

operating in together, the excellence

843

:

creep and the instructor burnout.

844

:

Have a cumulative effect where you end

up graduating less people in selection.

845

:

And so what ends up happening is, is

that you're supposed to keep 10 people

846

:

graduated a year in order to sustain

the team, and you're graduating two,

847

:

you can do that one time, maybe even

two times, but the third time what's

848

:

gonna happen is the generals, the

admirals, the chiefs will step in

849

:

and be like, that's enough of that.

850

:

And then all of a sudden you

lose all your authorities.

851

:

And you think everyone's trying to

take away your standard, lower your

852

:

standards, and kill your culture.

853

:

And that's not what's happening.

854

:

What's happening is things were

left unattended, things got out

855

:

of hand, and now we're here.

856

:

This paper is designed to look at

when it goes off the rails, but as a

857

:

reminder to everybody, the reason we're

able to produce extraordinary people

858

:

around the world consistently is because

most of these programs work really

859

:

well and for long periods of time.

860

:

This is not a wholesale to

thing to say that psychologists

861

:

are bad or cadre is bad.

862

:

These are examples of when great systems,

what are the stressors, what are the

863

:

competing tensions and where are the

potential weaknesses that might defeat

864

:

them over time and little by little.

865

:

And so this isn't a condemnation

of selection and training.

866

:

I'm a huge fan of it all.

867

:

I think it's amazing.

868

:

It's over 20 years trying to

identify those areas where it

869

:

will start to go off the rails

if you don't pay attention to it.

870

:

Art, is that fair?

871

:

Art: Fair.

872

:

Completely agree.

873

:

Preston: Okay.

874

:

The two other ones before I go to

psychologist that I wanted to bring to

875

:

your attention is there's two other ways

that we'll see organizational drift.

876

:

And I've named them diffusion

creep and logistics creep.

877

:

Diffusion creep is what happens when you

have a unit that started out with say,

878

:

60 operators, and now it's 2000 people.

879

:

And you've got techs, you've got

psychologists, you've got sports

880

:

psychologists, you've got a whole bunch

of people and a whole bunch of people

881

:

have their fingers in the pie, but they

don't necessarily understand the pie.

882

:

They're well-meaning people,

good-hearted people, and from their

883

:

expertise wanna improve things.

884

:

And so I was recently at a selection

where there was a particular stand,

885

:

and the stand was designed to see

how people navigated, truly ambiguous

886

:

or uncertain, highly kinetic events.

887

:

A well-meaning person who was running

that stand from a technology and a

888

:

logistics place said, "Man, these

instructions are always so confusing.

889

:

Let me get into the script and clean them

up so we can give better instructions

890

:

to the students", which in their good

heart was like a kindness, but it

891

:

defeated the purpose of the stand.

892

:

So the follow on stand when they

were getting interrogated had all the

893

:

right answers and were like, what?

894

:

What is going on?

895

:

How did this happen?

896

:

And they had to go back

upstream to look at this.

897

:

And I've seen that more and more as

teams get bigger, that people with

898

:

really good intentions are allowed

access to the design in ways that are

899

:

contrary to the actual underlying design.

900

:

The other creep that happens

is what I call logistics creep.

901

:

So Art and I'll design this

amazing selection, right?

902

:

And we'll do it with, in collaboration,

as we do with everything with everybody.

903

:

And then we'll be like,

yes, this is great.

904

:

And then we'll hand it to the cadre

and the cadre will be like, this

905

:

is a really good idea, but we can't

get the truck till Thursday and we

906

:

can't get access to that facility.

907

:

And Fred should have really

run this, but he is on leave.

908

:

. The logistics of it will start to

fracture the design of the selection.

909

:

But not all at once.

910

:

Just dribs and drabs over time.

911

:

And unless you have somebody

looking at the big picture, you

912

:

don't understand how it creeps away

from you, like excellence creep.

913

:

It's not a one and done situation.

914

:

It's not one person

just suddenly breaks it.

915

:

It's these little tiny corrections.

916

:

And the last thing I'll say is.

917

:

With all of this is that guarding

against those things shouldn't

918

:

inhibit your ability to innovate.

919

:

So I'm not suggesting that

things shouldn't change.

920

:

They should change, but they should be

changed intentionally, not by accident.

921

:

Art: Absolutely.

922

:

And I had never heard either of those

terms, but I can think of many situations

923

:

to which either or both of them apply.

924

:

And at the risk of stirring up a

hornet's nest, you lead me to think

925

:

of situations over the last 20 years

where the performance of the SOF units

926

:

in combat was so highly regarded that

the demand went through the roof.

927

:

Preston: Yes.

928

:

Art: And the demand was so high that

it was literally impossible to meet.

929

:

Preston: Yeah.

930

:

Art: Um, they couldn't

get enough people through.

931

:

And what I saw during that time was, for

both cadre and the psychologists that

932

:

were involved, it really went back to a

pathology model of if there's something

933

:

wrong with this person that's bad enough

that we can't take them, figure it out.

934

:

Through physical standards

or psychological standards.

935

:

If they're below this score

on these tests, historically

936

:

that's been a bad thing.

937

:

So anybody who scores lower than

that gets to talk to the shrink.

938

:

If you score below this, then we

might give you one more chance, where

939

:

before it was a hard drop, now you

get one more chance and two days

940

:

to recover and now you try again.

941

:

And obviously people who are in the

community at the time have a hard

942

:

time with that because you immediately

start hearing, you're lowering the

943

:

standards, you're lowering the standards.

944

:

And it, it just raises so many

complicated issues around diffusion,

945

:

creep in a potentially negative

direction because of logistics, in

946

:

this case, literally the number of

people available to even try and put on

947

:

whatever hat or patch they're trying for

948

:

to join whatever unit.

949

:

So I don't know if you even wanted

wander down that path at this point,

950

:

Preston, but that was where my mind

went as you were talking about it.

951

:

Preston: Yeah.

952

:

So another way I keep myself humble

with all this stuff is a reminder that

953

:

when all of these teams were first

stood up, there wasn't a selection.

954

:

And they still went off

and did great things.

955

:

Now they, some of them caused some

real problems back at home for

956

:

sure, which is why we use selection.

957

:

But let's all remember that.

958

:

If the zombies attack tomorrow or

the aliens landed and we had to

959

:

suddenly get 50 teams, we'd do it

and they'd probably do pretty great.

960

:

I think that the teams that we're

talking about, and the people that wanna

961

:

join these teams, for the most part,

are good humans who will get it done.

962

:

It just might not get it done

the way you think they should.

963

:

And so that's just a gentle way to

say, just deep breaths, everybody.

964

:

Like there's some blood spillt

at these selection boards, and

965

:

my motto really is, is it a red?

966

:

And if it's not a red, then it's a green.

967

:

That is my motto.

968

:

I don't believe in yellows.

969

:

I believe is the person red?

970

:

No.

971

:

Then put 'em through.

972

:

You have a mechanism to

get rid of 'em later.

973

:

Just put 'em through.

974

:

If you don't have the resources to do

that, we have to have another discussion.

975

:

That's a different discussion.

976

:

But if you're asking

me, get rid of yellows.

977

:

And by the way, for the people that

don't know, often people will talk

978

:

about the greens, everybody wants them.

979

:

The reds, nobody wants them.

980

:

And the yellows are,

"we're kind of confused".

981

:

Their numbers are sort of mixed.

982

:

We all have mixed views

and we're not sure.

983

:

And what will happen, historically, is the

cadre will submit yellows and the boss,

984

:

if he needs numbers, just takes all the

yellows and then the cadre freak out oh

985

:

my God, you're lowering the standards.

986

:

And my reply to 'em is, "No, you gave

him a yellow, which is to say not a red.

987

:

And if it's yellow, that means

you don't, you're indifferent.

988

:

So be indifferent.

989

:

But if you're not gonna be indifferent,

then make 'em a red or make 'em a green".

990

:

Art: It's the first time I've heard you

express a binary opinion about anything

991

:

Preston: About anything.

992

:

Art: But I have seen that exact thing

happen, and usually the way it's resolved

993

:

is we'll let training sort it out.

994

:

Preston: Yeah, that's right.

995

:

Art: Which already, which you've already

hit is creates its own challenges.

996

:

. You know, and it, it brings

back that the mantra that I hear

997

:

across these entire communities of

"selection is an ongoing process".

998

:

Preston: Yeah.

999

:

Art: And it gets complicated.

:

00:53:15,233 --> 00:53:17,213

Preston: I have a kind

of a unwritten rule.

:

00:53:17,213 --> 00:53:18,173

Maybe I should write it down.

:

00:53:18,173 --> 00:53:19,103

I'll tell everybody now.

:

00:53:19,583 --> 00:53:25,223

If you're not losing five to 10% of

people on your training course, you are

:

00:53:25,283 --> 00:53:27,173

being too risk-averse in your selection.

:

00:53:28,328 --> 00:53:31,208

Meaning you're leaving some meat

on the table, meaning that, that

:

00:53:31,208 --> 00:53:34,668

you have actually cut out some

people that could have been there,

:

00:53:34,668 --> 00:53:36,048

but you're being too conservative.

:

00:53:36,348 --> 00:53:40,768

So I would actually recommend that

everybody think about, at least a 5 to

:

00:53:40,978 --> 00:53:44,608

10% attrition at their training that

would suggest they're taking enough risks

:

00:53:44,638 --> 00:53:46,378

in selection and not losing good people.

:

00:53:46,528 --> 00:53:49,768

That's just a rule of thumb, but over

stepping back and looking at it for years

:

00:53:49,768 --> 00:53:53,728

and years and years, that's sort of one

of the metrics that I've seen work out.

:

00:53:54,281 --> 00:53:58,862

I'm now gonna close this up with an

idea of this community of Praxis, and

:

00:53:58,922 --> 00:54:02,522

the way I'm gonna explain it is just

very simple, is that we've talked

:

00:54:02,522 --> 00:54:06,692

about the communitas, which is just

the group of instructor cadre, the

:

00:54:06,702 --> 00:54:10,242

community, the tribe, anthropologists

called that a communitas: a group

:

00:54:10,242 --> 00:54:11,862

that has a shared lived experience.

:

00:54:12,512 --> 00:54:14,042

Then we talk about the academics.

:

00:54:14,042 --> 00:54:16,982

And the academics are not just

psychologists, but they're also

:

00:54:16,982 --> 00:54:18,212

the human performance folks.

:

00:54:18,212 --> 00:54:19,562

There are a bunch of folks like me.

:

00:54:19,562 --> 00:54:21,892

As an educator, I would fall on

the academic side of the house

:

00:54:22,072 --> 00:54:24,472

and we're the folks that are

trying to do predictive analytics.

:

00:54:24,472 --> 00:54:27,442

We're trying to give structure,

we're trying to help the boss

:

00:54:27,442 --> 00:54:29,032

make decisions with good data.

:

00:54:29,242 --> 00:54:31,972

We're trying to be fair to the

candidates and fair to the cadre.

:

00:54:32,152 --> 00:54:35,122

We're actually trying to arbitrate

this so that it's sustainable

:

00:54:35,122 --> 00:54:36,592

and not seen as arbitrary.

:

00:54:37,282 --> 00:54:38,212

But the third.

:

00:54:38,502 --> 00:54:41,052

Sort of leg of that stool

that often doesn't get talked

:

00:54:41,052 --> 00:54:42,102

about is the leadership.

:

00:54:42,522 --> 00:54:45,642

Because the leadership is the one

that owns the money, the number

:

00:54:45,642 --> 00:54:48,252

of people that they need, and

the mission, which is evolving.

:

00:54:49,092 --> 00:54:52,692

And ultimately it's them saying,

I'm writing a check to do this

:

00:54:52,692 --> 00:54:56,382

because I need X number of people

to do X number of kinds of things.

:

00:54:56,742 --> 00:55:00,932

And too often the psychologists or

the academics and the communitas

:

00:55:01,702 --> 00:55:02,542

will be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.

:

00:55:02,542 --> 00:55:03,682

That's not who we are."

:

00:55:03,802 --> 00:55:06,622

And as a reminder to you

all, that isn't your job.

:

00:55:07,397 --> 00:55:10,967

Your job is to adapt to the next

problem set, not to lecture to

:

00:55:10,967 --> 00:55:12,467

people on who and what you are.

:

00:55:12,677 --> 00:55:16,097

The reason you're in special operations

is because the conventional military

:

00:55:16,097 --> 00:55:19,217

is not fast enough or agile enough

to solve those kinds of problems.

:

00:55:19,637 --> 00:55:21,617

And we need you, and I mean that.

:

00:55:21,617 --> 00:55:24,257

We need you to stay agile

against that problem set.

:

00:55:24,767 --> 00:55:29,267

And so a community of praxis is

understanding everybody's role, not from

:

00:55:29,267 --> 00:55:33,677

a critical lens, but from a generative

or additive lens, which is to say these

:

00:55:33,677 --> 00:55:38,207

are actually really key ingredients

to really successful decisions.

:

00:55:38,597 --> 00:55:42,172

And so where everybody overlaps,

it works out brilliantly.

:

00:55:42,442 --> 00:55:45,442

And where there's tension, instead

of being like they suck or they

:

00:55:45,442 --> 00:55:49,582

hate America or whatever country

instead get curious and go, why is

:

00:55:49,582 --> 00:55:51,322

their data different than our data?

:

00:55:51,502 --> 00:55:55,552

What are they seeing that we are not

seeing and done well when this happens?

:

00:55:55,552 --> 00:55:57,742

I've seen psychologists go

back and check their data.

:

00:55:57,862 --> 00:56:00,412

I've seen Cadre go back and

just check their conversations.

:

00:56:00,622 --> 00:56:02,542

Are they in a halos and horn situation?

:

00:56:02,592 --> 00:56:06,852

Have they taken somebody and made

them the next coming or that they're,

:

00:56:07,092 --> 00:56:09,702

they've scapegoated them, they'll

never succeed no matter what.

:

00:56:10,242 --> 00:56:11,982

And both of those are bad, quite honestly.

:

00:56:12,232 --> 00:56:17,362

And so those are sort of the three

categories and if working together can

:

00:56:17,362 --> 00:56:19,012

be very, very successful in my opinion.

:

00:56:19,792 --> 00:56:24,306

I agree, and , when you say leaders,

there are multiple levels of leaders.

:

00:56:25,096 --> 00:56:28,302

Throughout this process of supporting

the research that you did to write this

:

00:56:28,302 --> 00:56:33,592

paper and all the many conversations

we've had about it I feel a very real

:

00:56:33,702 --> 00:56:41,037

desire to request that the leaders in

psychology be deliberate about the people

:

00:56:41,037 --> 00:56:44,067

that they bring into these organizations.

:

00:56:44,577 --> 00:56:44,727

Yeah.

:

00:56:44,997 --> 00:56:48,507

Art: Whether that involves their own

internal selection process, whether

:

00:56:48,507 --> 00:56:53,577

that involves entry level opportunities

that allow them to get a work sample

:

00:56:53,577 --> 00:56:56,817

and they go to dinner with them and

they drive across country with them

:

00:56:56,817 --> 00:57:02,007

or out to a training area and they

get a feel for these psychologists and

:

00:57:02,007 --> 00:57:04,257

scientists and academics as people.

:

00:57:04,647 --> 00:57:09,527

And, since they are often already

part of this community, they should

:

00:57:09,527 --> 00:57:14,747

have a sense of how well an individual

might fit in, assuming that they have

:

00:57:14,747 --> 00:57:19,007

at least the baseline credentialing

that's needed to wear the hat of

:

00:57:19,007 --> 00:57:20,927

psychologists in whatever lane they're in.

:

00:57:21,297 --> 00:57:25,797

But I believe that some of that is on

the leadership in psychology to weigh

:

00:57:25,797 --> 00:57:30,477

in on that, to make those decisions

and to not set people or organizations

:

00:57:30,477 --> 00:57:34,565

up for failure and to make this

opportunity to come together and unify

:

00:57:34,715 --> 00:57:36,485

more difficult than it needs to be.

:

00:57:36,995 --> 00:57:37,145

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:57:37,145 --> 00:57:39,965

Art: Because the wrong people are in

the wrong positions at the wrong time.

:

00:57:40,245 --> 00:57:42,855

And I think that the same thing

happens on the cadre side.

:

00:57:42,855 --> 00:57:42,915

Preston: Yeah.

:

00:57:42,915 --> 00:57:46,155

Art: One of the things that's a, an

interesting phenomenon, and I've seen

:

00:57:46,155 --> 00:57:50,105

over the last, couple of years in the

selection programs I step in and out of

:

00:57:51,725 --> 00:57:58,295

is since we're no longer in active combat

in so many places the way that we were

:

00:57:58,295 --> 00:58:04,505

for almost 20 years, we now have really,

really effective, high performing, high

:

00:58:04,505 --> 00:58:08,555

functioning operational individuals in

whatever lane they're in -- dog handlers,

:

00:58:08,555 --> 00:58:13,086

medics, operators, communicators,

intelligence folks, all of 'em -- who

:

00:58:13,086 --> 00:58:15,426

are not as busy as they were before.

:

00:58:15,906 --> 00:58:20,226

And I would argue that you have an

opportunity to be a leader in that

:

00:58:20,226 --> 00:58:25,416

moment and to step in and go be part of

the cadre that develops and finds the

:

00:58:25,416 --> 00:58:27,396

next group of people and trains them.

:

00:58:27,796 --> 00:58:30,316

And it's not because you've

got challenges, it's not

:

00:58:30,316 --> 00:58:31,426

because you need a break.

:

00:58:32,146 --> 00:58:36,736

All of that can be true, but you can also

make the decision simply because you have

:

00:58:36,736 --> 00:58:40,186

something to offer that's meaningful and

compelling and powerful, particularly

:

00:58:40,186 --> 00:58:44,296

if you're of the mindset that we're

best when this is a unified effort.

:

00:58:44,976 --> 00:58:50,046

I would encourage leaders on both sides

to adjust the lens on that and consider

:

00:58:50,046 --> 00:58:51,336

the decisions that are being made.

:

00:58:52,351 --> 00:58:55,466

Preston: And the problem with selection

and assessment, right, is that

:

00:58:55,736 --> 00:58:58,166

exceptional work is just a Thursday.

:

00:58:58,466 --> 00:58:59,426

That's what it's expected.

:

00:58:59,786 --> 00:59:03,446

But when it goes bad on either side,

when you get an egregiously bad cadre

:

00:59:03,446 --> 00:59:06,896

or an egregiously bad psychologist,

man does it fill the windshield.

:

00:59:06,956 --> 00:59:08,576

And for very different reasons.

:

00:59:09,196 --> 00:59:12,626

When you have a bad cadre, the

team will usually rally around them

:

00:59:12,626 --> 00:59:16,016

and defend them even if they know

it's wrong because of the culture.

:

00:59:16,496 --> 00:59:21,626

When you have a bad psychologist, it's

really problematic for other psychologists

:

00:59:21,626 --> 00:59:23,306

to criticize one of their peers.

:

00:59:23,366 --> 00:59:27,876

And often the leadership doesn't really

know what to do for legal reasons or for

:

00:59:27,876 --> 00:59:29,766

HR reasons or a variety of other things.

:

00:59:29,946 --> 00:59:34,716

And so they tend to be a lasting

problem, which is a shame because they

:

00:59:34,716 --> 00:59:38,706

might be one of six, but everyone's

talking about the one of six and not

:

00:59:38,706 --> 00:59:41,856

the five that are amazing and changing

America and the world for better.

:

00:59:42,396 --> 00:59:49,036

And that's a conversation that we just

need to find a way to have in a very

:

00:59:49,036 --> 00:59:54,046

objective way and create some mechanisms

so that when that does happen, that we can

:

00:59:54,046 --> 00:59:55,636

have a reasonable conversation about it.

:

00:59:55,646 --> 00:59:58,406

And that's true for everybody actually,

that's working with special operations.

:

00:59:58,586 --> 01:00:01,496

It's just asking the question,

how does one get involved?

:

01:00:01,646 --> 01:00:03,986

How does one get removed

if they need to be?

:

01:00:03,986 --> 01:00:06,266

Or how does one get

counseled if they need to be?

:

01:00:06,626 --> 01:00:10,286

And that isn't always clear,

depending on what team it is.

:

01:00:10,706 --> 01:00:13,766

And I try, if I meet with the commanders,

I try to get a question that I ask all

:

01:00:13,766 --> 01:00:15,566

of them just because I'm curious, right?

:

01:00:15,716 --> 01:00:20,471

And the question I asked this time

was, now that you've been in this

:

01:00:20,471 --> 01:00:24,991

path for a long time and you look back

at your selection and assessment, do

:

01:00:24,991 --> 01:00:29,881

you believe that people that do well

as instructor cadres do better in

:

01:00:29,881 --> 01:00:33,091

leadership positions regardless of

its team leader or officer leader?

:

01:00:33,361 --> 01:00:35,851

And every answer was an emphatic yes.

:

01:00:36,331 --> 01:00:40,231

They said the lapse of teaching other

people and developing other people

:

01:00:40,231 --> 01:00:44,551

and learning the craft of developing

other people, ended up actually

:

01:00:44,551 --> 01:00:49,531

translating directly to leading people

in chaotic and emergent environments

:

01:00:49,711 --> 01:00:52,681

where new things are having to be

taught to each other every single day.

:

01:00:53,131 --> 01:00:56,701

And so I would simply say to everybody

who is interested in progressing in

:

01:00:56,701 --> 01:01:01,651

the ranks and being of a significance

to their team, that a time that you

:

01:01:01,651 --> 01:01:05,581

might be hesitant to go and spend some

time in the cadre to maybe reframe it,

:

01:01:05,581 --> 01:01:09,091

to understand that it might actually

be the thing that allows you to be the

:

01:01:09,091 --> 01:01:10,171

kind of leader that you want to be.

:

01:01:11,131 --> 01:01:12,796

Art: N nothing to add other than Amen.

:

01:01:12,956 --> 01:01:15,656

Preston: So Art, that was all

the major points that I wanted to

:

01:01:15,656 --> 01:01:17,546

make just reviewing the Article.

:

01:01:17,546 --> 01:01:21,331

I wanted to make a little bit of

like, hey you know, this is some stuff

:

01:01:21,331 --> 01:01:23,790

we've discovered since the paper got

written, and also just to encourage

:

01:01:23,940 --> 01:01:26,379

people who are interested in the

subject to take a look at the paper.

:

01:01:26,589 --> 01:01:30,629

I didn't know if you had any closing

thoughts or clarifications that you wanted

:

01:01:30,629 --> 01:01:33,694

or any stuff about selection that we

didn't talk about you think is important.

:

01:01:34,779 --> 01:01:41,849

Art: I've sat in awe of this process for

decades now, and just expressed gratitude

:

01:01:41,849 --> 01:01:47,429

to all of the cadre, all of the academics,

my psychologist colleagues of all stripes

:

01:01:47,729 --> 01:01:49,109

for the work that they're putting in.

:

01:01:49,169 --> 01:01:53,159

Another saying that Paul LaCamera had

was, your impact on the battlefield is

:

01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:55,262

not dictated by your proximity to it.

:

01:01:55,262 --> 01:01:59,642

And I think that is true of this

community we want to help support

:

01:01:59,642 --> 01:02:04,652

building and growing and developing, is

that you are training the next person.

:

01:02:04,652 --> 01:02:06,302

You are selecting the next person.

:

01:02:06,302 --> 01:02:11,132

You are influencing the next person who

will be facing the next zombie apocalypse,

:

01:02:11,612 --> 01:02:17,562

and your efficacy will at one point

be tested but that doesn't diminish

:

01:02:17,562 --> 01:02:20,232

your efforts on a regular Thursday.

:

01:02:21,612 --> 01:02:25,442

Preston: Yeah, if we look at what an

operator really is, what makes 'em

:

01:02:25,442 --> 01:02:31,172

effective is that they have habituated

a certain set of skills in such a way

:

01:02:31,172 --> 01:02:34,712

that they can maximize their situational

awareness in a chaotic situation.

:

01:02:35,492 --> 01:02:39,632

In order for them to habituate those

skills, they need people from the

:

01:02:39,632 --> 01:02:43,382

outside coaching and mentoring them

on that, that skill development.

:

01:02:43,862 --> 01:02:46,382

And if done well, this

is the important part.

:

01:02:46,652 --> 01:02:51,362

If done well, that process for

the instructor is very boring.

:

01:02:51,902 --> 01:02:53,102

I wanted to say this out loud.

:

01:02:53,432 --> 01:02:57,002

Done well, the most elite people

in the world have to do it a lot

:

01:02:57,032 --> 01:02:58,772

over and over again consistently.

:

01:02:59,282 --> 01:03:01,716

And that seems unattractive.

:

01:03:01,886 --> 01:03:06,867

But there is a beauty and there is a

wisdom in that that can't be replaced.

:

01:03:07,227 --> 01:03:10,137

And I just want to thank all

the cadre that I've ever worked

:

01:03:10,137 --> 01:03:13,317

with that have demonstrated that

over and over again because the

:

01:03:13,317 --> 01:03:17,157

work they're doing is literally

contributing to keeping people alive.

:

01:03:17,517 --> 01:03:20,247

And while it is boring,

you are not forgotten.

:

01:03:20,277 --> 01:03:23,727

And I want to thank you all because

it's such important work, even

:

01:03:23,727 --> 01:03:26,007

though at times it feels like

you're just making the donuts.

:

01:03:26,427 --> 01:03:29,727

So , with that gratitude for all the

amazing people that have given opportunity

:

01:03:29,727 --> 01:03:32,727

to see their programs, all the amazing

programs that are still going on, that

:

01:03:32,727 --> 01:03:34,017

we're still supporting, thank you.

:

01:03:34,317 --> 01:03:36,827

And as always, we look forward

to talking to you next time.

:

01:03:37,247 --> 01:03:37,757

Thanks, Art.

:

01:03:38,327 --> 01:03:38,792

Art: Thank you, Preston.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania