Episode 17

full
Published on:

13th Jul 2026

S6 Ep14 A Better Approach to After-Action Reviews

A few years ago, senior FBI SWAT team leader Matt Hoffman called Preston after a fatal operation. To assist the team in working through the loss, Preston and Matt used a process that went beyond the standard after-action review by incorporating narrative inquiry. The goal was to let a fractured team's story come back together before anyone examined what went wrong, rather than extracting lessons first.

Later, Preston worked with Matt and Dr. Angus Fletcher — Professor and Director of the Leadership Initiative at Ohio State's Fisher College of Business — to write up what they learned. Their paper, "A Better Approach to After-Action Reviews," was published in Harvard Business Review.

This summer Matt and Angus joined Preston to discuss Angus's research, why traditional AARs work when they're done right, and narrative competence over narrative allegiance.

The three of them dig into why a story lands in the brain differently than a data point does, why the breakfast that follows a hard AAR isn't a throwaway ritual but an active repair, and why naming the discomfort in the room, not necessarily fixing it, is often the whole job of a leader. Advice for Monday: stop chasing lessons learned first. Get the full story. The lessons will surface on their own.

If you found value in this discussion, the best way to support our work and stay up to date on future episodes is to subscribe and leave us a quick rating or review. It helps us reach more people who need to hear these conversations.

Transcript
Preston:

Welcome to the Teamcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Preston Cline, director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

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Here, we discuss all things

mission critical teams.

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These are teams of four to 12 people

indigenously trained and educated to

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solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets where the consequence of

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failure is death or catastrophic loss.

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With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

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zones to emergency rooms, dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

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and sustainability of these teams.

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We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

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language and frameworks to transfer

critical, often unspoken, knowledge.

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Whether you're on a mission critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

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the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

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you to perform when it matters most.

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Thank you for joining us, and

hope you enjoy the Teamcast.

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Hello, everybody, and

welcome back to the Teamcast.

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This is Dr.

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Preston Cline.

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I am joined by Dr.

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Angus Fletcher and by senior

team leader and special agent

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Matt Huffman from the FBI.

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We are here to discuss an article

that we wrote a few years ago now

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on after action reviews and more

specifically narrative inquiry.

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We did it in response to an event that

occurred that I'll allow Matt to explain.

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But first, I just want Matt and Angus just

to introduce themselves to the audience

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so they can remind folks who they are.

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Matt, do you wanna go first?

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Matt: So Matt Hoffman.

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I've been an FBI special agent for 16

years, served in multiple capacities,

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but have been in a full-time SWAT role or

full-time SWAT instructor role both in the

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field and at our schoolhouse at Quantico.

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Prior to that, I was a municipal police

officer and a United States Army officer.

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Preston: Thanks very much.

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And Angus?

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Angus: I'm a professor at Ohio State.

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I'm also director of the Leadership

Initiative at the Fisher College of

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Business, and I'm basically the joker

of the three of us in the sense that I'm

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not the one here with the real expertise.

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I'm sort of freeloading on the credit

and the glory, but I'm, I'm happy

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to do that here on the scene today.

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Yeah.

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Preston: Says the guy with

a national bestselling book.

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Yes, humility is good, but it's

maybe a little misplaced in the

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moment, but I like it, Angus.

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It's always a pleasure

to work with you guys.

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Hey, let's go back in time, Matt.

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A few years ago, I was here in this

office and, I got a call from you, and

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I want you to sort of take us through

that moment and leading us up to my

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visit down to you, in the following days.

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Matt: So I'll keep some of this a little

bit more generalized, but ultimately

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we had two very dedicated, very

exceptional special agents that were out

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conducting an operation that resulted

in their deaths in the line of duty.

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As that event unfolded certain

systems and processes and certain

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relationships that could have been

impactful had not been fully realized,

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and so we found ourselves at a loss

for understanding and making meaning.

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Preston: And so, what was the

impetus behind calling me?

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Matt: We had a problem that was one of

the things that has drawn me to MCTI

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since my first summit, was understanding

the ability to, that everyone had the

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same problems, that in this, the mission

critical community, we all come against

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the same problem and then we all think we

live in a, a unique problem because we do

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a unique job, and the reality is we don't.

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So I knew that the community that you

had created would have answers and

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would have clarity that my proximity

to the problem set wouldn't allow.

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Preston: So when I got the phone call,

the original ask was for me to come

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down and do an after action review.

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I am a doctorate in education,

not in psychology, certainly

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not in clinical psychology.

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And when they're doing after action

reviews on line of duty deaths, it's a

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complicated matter that you need some

folks that are able to be there in case

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anyone has a challenge making meaning

of the experience that is greater

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than my skills allow me to navigate.

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I also knew that an after action

review, if done poorly, can actually

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add more weight to the issue.

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And so what I wanted to do, because Matt

was my friend and I was friends with

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the FBI, is I wanted to find a way to

not do a traditional AAR, but rather

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do a thing called narrative inquiry,

For those of you who are not familiar

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with AARs, I'm hoping Angus will walk

us through a little bit about just what

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are AARs, why have they been used, what

are their strengths and weaknesses?

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Angus: So I came into this without any

familiarity with AAR, so I kind of had

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to teach myself from the ground up.

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AARs were developed in the 1970s

by the United States Army to

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replace something that was known

as the performance critique.

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So basically you would go out, you

would run a mission, you'd run an

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operation, you'd come back, and your

commander would give you a performance

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critique in which he said something

along the lines of, "That sucked.

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Do better next time."

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And over time, people were like,

"You know, this performance

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critique is a good idea.

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It's a good idea that we review what

we did on the mission, but we're

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not actually finding this particular

mechanism that helpful in making us

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more effective the next time we go out.

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We understand that perhaps

we did suck a little bit.

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We understand that we have to

perhaps do a little bit better, but

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this particular way of approaching

it isn't making us any better.

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And so in the 1970s, what the United

States Army did was it formalized

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a process known as the after-action

review, and the after-action

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review has four main components.

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The first one is to ask what

did we expect to happen?

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The second is to say

what actually happened.

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The third is to say what's the difference,

what's the delta between those two?

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And the final thing is to say

what change can we make next time?

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And the overall shift here is

towards a process that is, first

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of all, more participatory.

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So instead of being told by command, "Hey,

here's how we evaluate your performance,"

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instead the team members that actually

go on the mission are given the chance

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to evaluate their own performance.

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And the second shift is away from

this kind of higher level more

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process-driven thing into a narrative,

into a story that's particular.

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Where we walk through exactly

what happened, what did occur on

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the mission, and what do we want

to occur on the next mission.

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So you have that narrative component.

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So that's the idea behind the AAR,

and when it's used appropriately,

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it is incredibly effective.

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However What we know is that well over 90%

of the time AARs are not used effectively.

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And instead of being used to have a

deep and honest conversation about what

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went on in the mission and what can

go better next time, instead they're

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used for things like blame shifting.

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So someone will come into the room,

maybe a senior leader will come into

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the room trying to protect themselves

with an idea, with a pre-established

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narrative, pre-established story.

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So instead of allowing the story to

emerge organically through conversation

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the leader will come in and say, "Here's

what I think basically happened."

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And then everyone will be in you

know, sort of prodded to go along.

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So it becomes a kind

of pro forma exercise.

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There's a lot of silencing in

a bad AAR of uncomfortable,

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difficult, outside perspectives.

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And then the result of this is instead

of having a deep process of learning,

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what ends up happening is you have a

couple superficial changes where people

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say, "Oh, you know, the real problem was

that, we went in two seconds early or two

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seconds late," or something like that.

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That was the real problem.

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As opposed to being like, we have

a structure in this organization

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that's not allowing us to communicate

effectively with each other

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and raise dissent or whatever.

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So you get these superficial

changes, and then everybody moves on.

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And so the paradox I discovered from

the outside is that AARs are incredibly

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effective when they work, but they

are almost never used properly.

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And the big insight that I got to

experience working with Preston and Matt

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was how to actually make an AAR effective.

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And that insight comes from what

Preston's gonna talk about, this

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narrative inquiry thing, but it

comes from a simple, a couple simple

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just shifts of emphasis really.

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Preston: So as I got the phone call from

Matt, what I always worry about with

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all of my friends and myself, when we

experience an extreme event, loss of a

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friend, loss of a coworker or a major loss

of any kind, is that individuals or teams

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will be unable to make meaning of it.

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And you'll often find that

out because they'll say things

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like, "I don't understand.

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I don't understand why I did that.

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I don't understand why they did that.

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I don't understand why that happened.

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I don't understand.

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I don't understand."

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And so, and that not understanding, that

inability to make meaning of an event,

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certainly in a tribal environment, both

structurally but also emotionally, and

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culturally, it leaves this lingering

ambiguity that serves as a little bit of

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a poison because it's the thing you carry

around, rattling around in your brain.

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And so my goal in going down to Matt

and not doing a formal AAR but rather

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doing a narrative inquiry is because

I wanted to help the team make meaning

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of this event before we got into the

factual side of it, the structural

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side of it, as Angus pointed out.

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And what's interesting about this,

just to take it one, one layer

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deeper so that you can appreciate the

levels at which we're talking today.

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Lately, i- with Angus' help, I've been

talking to a number of people around

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the world, various kinds of storyteller,

from film producers to actors to authors

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and, one of the things that, that has

now come into sort of clarity for me is

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that there is a reason that humans have

developed poetry, song lyrics, movies.

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It's because we lack a language,

a precise language, to make

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meaning of certain extreme events.

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You can be at a rock concert or a music

concert, and everyone is singing the same

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song that has kind of nonsense lyrics,

but everybody knows what it means.

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You can read a poetry from Neruda or

Ser Faris, and it's sort of disjointed

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words, but everyone knows what it

means, and it transcends in importance.

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If you watch Schindler's List with

the girl in the red jacket in a

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black-and-white screen with the music in

the background, if you read that scene,

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it did not have the same impact on you

collectively as it does by watching

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it in its entirety by the combination

of music and imagery and context.

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Stories are the collective remembering

of a thing, the collective meaning-making

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of a thing so that people can look

at each other and nod and go, "Yep,

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that's how I think about it as well.

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That's how I feel about it as well.

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That's how we should all think

and feel about it as well based

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on our culture and our norms."

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And so I wanted to say all of that because

I didn't want, to Angus' point, I didn't

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want you as the listeners to think we're

really just talking about this checklist

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where at the end of it, it's like,

oh yeah, we need to adjust item 1.B.

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What we're talking about is something

much deeper, which gets at the tribal

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nature of mission-critical teams, which

is to how people make meaning of these

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extreme experience in critical, not

routine, environments, where words are

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sometimes not enough to describe the

import, the gravitas of that event.

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Angus: Think what you're talking

about there is stories are our lives.

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All of us are constantly telling a

story about our life, and when we're

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on a team, we're telling a story too.

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And the question is is that team telling

a shared story, or is it telling a

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lot of independent stories that are

all made by those, those team members?

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And the value of these shared

collective stories is they allow us

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to become bigger than ourselves and

participate in these larger narratives.

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And so whether you go to a rock concert

and you're all singing the same song

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and you all feel on the same page

there, or you're part of a team and, and

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that's a story you can't share outside

the team, but that's a story that you

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all share as a team, that builds that

collective understanding of togetherness.

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And when you go through a traumatic

event, your narrative fractures.

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I mean, that's one of the effects

of trauma is to break your story.

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Because all of a sudden, as

Preston's saying, you're in a

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moment of, "Why did that happen?

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I don't understand that."

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You lose a sense of

connection to the world.

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You lose a sense of the purpose and

the meaning of your own existence.

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And so when a team goes through

that event, it fractures too.

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And so it's important when you have

those events to come back together

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and to talk about that story.

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And unlike at a rock concert where you're

all getting your story from that guy

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on the stage, what you wanna do as a

team is actually start to talk through

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that fracturing, what the story was

before, what it became in that moment

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of fracture, and what it's gonna be now.

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And that is the path not just to,

to healing from that moment, but

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also gaining strength and gaining

wisdom and gaining a deeper sense

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of purpose from the negative event.

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Preston: Matt, do you wanna take us a

little bit through just the structure of

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that day and when I got down there and we

got up to that first few minutes with the

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team and how we laid it out for everyone?

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Matt: So one thing I just wanted to

touch on that, Angus covered that

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I thought was pretty profound, is

that idea of a good team, a very

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tight-knit team that has been built

over the series of a bunch of events.

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They often have the story they tell of

themselves, and they have that image,

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and when that fracturing happens,

a lot of that questioning, you can

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see it in the eyes of the guys.

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Now that I have a language for it and

I have the ability to describe it,

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given the tools that have been given

to me by you guys, you understand

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that that's not who we are, and

that's not who we thought we were.

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And sometimes the disconnect between

who we are and who we thought

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we were is the problem itself.

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But other times it's the, what you've

built as being part of something

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greater yourself provides organizational

vulnerability and fallibility that

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sometimes you don't believe exists.

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So i-it's, it's pretty profound, and

I've had a chance to, since we've been

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through this event, I've had a chance

to use this locally on smaller scale

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events to postmortem certain things

that have happened that were important

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enough that they created a new potential

narrative for the team or, or fracture

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the narrative as, as Angus said.

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So, the event in question, lasted just

under two hours from the agent serving

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the warrant to the gunfire where they were

both killed, and then my team's arrival, a

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handoff with a, a local team that did some

really heroic things that day, and then

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resolving the situation of a barricaded

subject and finding the subject deceased.

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the whole thing took two hours.

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And so we, as we structured this

and came together I set aside a

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half a day for us to go through

this exercise, and you and I had met

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the night before and had gone over.

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At this point, we were all

pretty frazzled from the team.

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We hadn't really slept much in, in

about seven days, been working nonstop.

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I thought the best thing I could

do for the team was occupy us which

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probably some guys appreciated.

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Some guys, I'm not sure they

appreciated, but that was the goal.

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Just, "Hey, head down, mission focus,

stay on top, and then when we come

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up for air we'll address this."

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And that's the mechanism we put in

place, and so the goal here, based on

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our conversations was let's tell the

story from every perspective necessary,

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and let's structure the room so that we

can tease out what we need to tease out.

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And I think I've gotten better at this,

but at the time, we were attempting

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to create small groups for some

intimate conversation and then get

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the remainder of the team together,

and we had grouped them by their

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internal organic structure to the team.

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So each team is subdivided into

elements in the MCTI community, four

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to 12, and indigenously trained.

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So in this case, our assault teams

were set to four to six, which is a, a

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kind of an industry standard, and those

were grouped together across the room.

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And that was the stage that we

set up, was leaders talk last.

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We need high levels of engagement,

and if something's said in the

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room that is different than your

understanding, it's your duty to

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participate and to resolve the ambiguity

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Preston: And that everyone had to talk.

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That was the other big point, is that

everyone had to speak at some point.

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And the reason w- for that was there's

something about this kind of ritualistic

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movement where to be seen to talk

and to be heard matters a great deal.

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And sometimes that is

enough for some people.

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Just to be heard for people

to look at them and nod, and

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then they're like, "Okay.

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All right.

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That's what I needed.

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I just needed the community to recognize

me, recognize my contribution, and

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recognize my thoughts, and not have an

allergic reaction, and that will allow me

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to keep moving with this pack of wolves."

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The other thing we failed to say earlier,

but I know Angus has done a lot of

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work on, is narrative gets encoded in

the brain differently than data does.

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One of the big mistakes that people will

make with AARs is they'll come in and

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they wanna go after institutional memory.

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So they wanna get the lessons learned

and get some documented data points.

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And the problem with that is that if,

a- and, you've heard me say this before,

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but just again, if I tell you a story

or any of us tell you a story, and

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it, we can tell it for five minutes.

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You'll remember most of it

even after hearing it just

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once if it's a decent story.

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If I tell you the directions to my

supermarket right now, which has

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about nine turns even with a pen and a

paper, if I asked you just to blindly

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recite that to me, you're gonna have

a trouble doing it because of the

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difference in the way the brain encodes

information versus encodes narrative.

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Literally just different

parts of the brain.

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And so one of the reasons that we

care about this is because we're

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not trying to influence is people's

rational view of judgment of an event.

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We're trying to i- we're trying to

influence the story they tell themselves

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about themselves and about the team.

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Angus, is that a fair read back?

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Angus: Yeah and, Uh, just a

couple things to piggyback on that.

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When you're focused on data, actually what

you're doing is you're sort of engaging

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parts of the brain that, evolved

actually for vision and things like that.

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So they're not actually really

… Your brain isn't very good with

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numbers, 'cause mostly your brain

processes, data as visual things.

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So when you start hearing

these abstract numbers.

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But when you start talking in stories, it

goes right into your brain's motor cortex.

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It goes right into the part of your

brain that acts and thinks in action.

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And so immediately your brain is able

to say, "Hey, you know, I can connect

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to this and experience this myself,

and kind of run through the motions

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of it, and does it feel right to me?

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Does this story feel okay?

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Am I comfortable in this story?

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Is this a way that I could feel myself

acting or performing as, as a member

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of a team that's telling this story?"

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And so it immediately gets to

that deep part of the brain.

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It also engages emotion really powerfully.

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And, you know, if you're trying to get

behavioral change in your organization,

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emotion is incredibly important.

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Why?

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'Cause if you think something

is right, you often don't do it.

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But if you feel that something

is right, you almost always do.

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And finally, this whole thing about

having everybody talk, what you're

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really saying there is here's a

space where people can express

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themselves I mean, that's the thing.

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And you, by participating

in that, it becomes real.

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It's not just something that's spoken.

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It's not just a slogan on the wall.

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It's I experienced saying something,

and I didn't get judged for saying it.

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And what that does is that builds a sense

of trust and community and belonging.

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And again, that's absolutely critical

in these teams because what you

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want is not just a team on paper.

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You want a team in the physical parts of

your brain so that when something goes

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wrong, immediately the first thing that I

do isn't blame you, but I immediately come

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to you and say, "What can I do to help?"

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And that's that you know you've

got a team, is because everyone

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on a team is owning every single

problem as the team's problem as

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opposed to somebody else's problem.

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And you only get that by having

these kinds of participatory

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exercises where they start to

feel that collective presence.

344

:

Preston: Yeah, I agree.

345

:

And just from an anthropological point

of view, which is always fascinating

346

:

to me, is that if you go back in

human history, who is authorized

347

:

to speak around the fire, right?

348

:

Has a lot of gravitas to it.

349

:

And when you open that up to everyone's

authorized to speak around the fire,

350

:

suddenly there's, there is this import

that comes to it, importance that

351

:

comes to it that, i- it's a little bit

different than just having a conversation.

352

:

The other thing I want to

say, I want to just speak a

353

:

moment about injury and trauma.

354

:

You'll hear these terms come out.

355

:

Injury is a thing you recover from.

356

:

It's a thing that

disrupts you in some way.

357

:

It is a moral injury, for

example, as Matt pointed out.

358

:

It's the person you, who you thought

you were and then you did something

359

:

or something happened that violated

your own code of who you are.

360

:

And but what, w- why I'm saying injury

and not trauma is that injury like

361

:

a sprained wrist requires rehab.

362

:

It's not a life sentence.

363

:

And what's happening in our modern

modernity is that people are using

364

:

trauma to suggest it's a life

sentence, it's a permanent wound.

365

:

That is not true.

366

:

I want to be really clear here

that, when it comes to human

367

:

beings we are incredibly adaptive.

368

:

Humans are adaptive in ways that we're

only beginning to really understand.

369

:

And nothing, no matter how bad it is,

and I know people will freak out when

370

:

I say this, you still have a choice

of what you're going to do with that

371

:

story, with that information, with

that violence, with that injury,

372

:

but it is not a life sentence.

373

:

And so, I want to be careful that if

anyone's listening to this and they're

374

:

being like, "Oh yeah, I'm a victim of

trauma," I need you to stop saying that.

375

:

That's not helpful to you.

376

:

It's harmful to you.

377

:

I need you to start saying, "I've

experienced an injury, and now

378

:

I'm going to be fighting back."

379

:

Yeah.

380

:

Angus: Yeah.

381

:

And, what you're talking about is what

I often talk about is anti-fragility.

382

:

Preston: Yeah.

383

:

Angus: The idea that actually

hard things make humans stronger.

384

:

Preston: Yeah.

385

:

Angus: That our body evolved

to take on hard things.

386

:

And, you know, the way that you know

this is true is that all of your wisdom

387

:

comes from moments in your life where

you were fundamentally challenged.

388

:

Preston: Yeah.

389

:

Angus: And you felt like, "This is

too hard," or, "I wanna give up."

390

:

All of your strength comes

from moments when you were

391

:

challenged on that deep level.

392

:

And so I don't wanna imply that

there aren't things that can happen

393

:

to you that can cause damage, that

can cause harm, but as Preston says,

394

:

in that moment we have a choice.

395

:

And we know that if you get cancer, that's

not your fault that you got cancer, but

396

:

we know that if you own the cancer and

say, "This is a gift to me, and I'm gonna

397

:

own this gift as a way of showing other

people around me how to handle cancer and

398

:

how to do it," we know that that produces,

enormous positive effects in the brain.

399

:

There's something called

eustress which occurs.

400

:

And so no matter how negative your

circumstances are, life always gives you

401

:

the choice of how to respond to them.

402

:

Preston: Matt I wanted to see if

you're able to talk about the follow-on

403

:

effects of that day after everyone

got a chance to speak, everyone

404

:

got a chance to tell their story.

405

:

What happened afterwards?

406

:

Matt: So we kind of started over again.

407

:

We had as Angus had pointed out, who we

thought we were and who we actually were.

408

:

There was a large delta between

those two, and that was crushing.

409

:

And some guys-- A, a small group of

guys didn't really make the bridge

410

:

and they went off to find other

things to do because it was such a

411

:

disconnect from how they saw themselves.

412

:

But the rest of the team looked

deep and said, "This is…

413

:

We are gonna become who

we thought we were."

414

:

And that journey is not, it's not

a, a short or an easy journey.

415

:

There were setbacks.

416

:

There was an arc that we followed as

a timeline of, everything was hard.

417

:

It was hard to confront the truths,

and it was hard to realize that other

418

:

people had already confronted the

truth about us and their view of us.

419

:

You look through the four windows,

their view of us was different than

420

:

our view of ourselves, and we had

to resolve that in order to move on.

421

:

And as we started working through those

concepts, we had setbacks along the way.

422

:

We had some roads we took

down that didn't work out.

423

:

But ultimately, in about eighteen

months, we owned a different team,

424

:

and in thirty months but we had

become probably the most capable team

425

:

within our cohort, across the country.

426

:

We're able to produce outsized,

operational effects, in support of

427

:

investigative efforts that, was,

was almost universally enhancing.

428

:

And with that, the openness, the honesty,

the feedback, the growth the true

429

:

humility that came through all the stuff

was, was-- became culturally ingrained.

430

:

And one of the things I enjoyed

during my time on that team was

431

:

we did have a high turnover.

432

:

So we had the opportunity to give

this to new members and to raise them

433

:

in this community, raise the, raise

them in this culture give them a

434

:

voice early which is something that

I wasn't necessarily brought up with.

435

:

And at the three-year mark, we'd ask one

of the brand-new members of the team,

436

:

who'd been on the team less than ten

months, to to author a culture document.

437

:

Tell us who we are and

from your experience.

438

:

You've got no history of the pre and post.

439

:

You weren't even here in this

organization when this event occurred.

440

:

The document he came up with was

profound, and it, it centered on

441

:

service, on humility on availability.

442

:

And one of the things that I talk about

with my guys is the unspoken agreement,

443

:

the idea that every day I train I'm

in the gym, on the range, in the shoot

444

:

house, whatever it is every day you're

getting better for the opportunity

445

:

to make sure that the guys around

you go home to their families, and

446

:

in turn they're doing the same thing.

447

:

And the micro level trust and, and

compact between those guys gets expanded

448

:

out until the team as Angus said,

every problem is the team's problem.

449

:

And we experience that at a level that

became infectious and allowed us to

450

:

really help and mentor other teams

onto that location and share with them

451

:

our story, our struggle some of the

things that some of the hardest parts,

452

:

we were able to really open those up

and provide some vulnerability that

453

:

gave that team a chance to be who

they'd always thought they had been.

454

:

Preston: Yeah, I think it's brilliant.

455

:

I think a couple things I just wanna,

bring to everyone's attention is that

456

:

we'll solve a particular problem at a

team, a cultural problem, and then over

457

:

time there is this concept of narrative

drift, which as new members come, as

458

:

events happen, as people get busy that

different things will become infectious,

459

:

different things will become contagion.

460

:

And you have to actually be really

clear about what the narrative is and

461

:

find ways to continuously reinforce it.

462

:

Because often, especially in busy,

busy teams things can often get

463

:

reduced to just the most efficient

thing rather than the best thing.

464

:

And that, can be really problematic.

465

:

And a- and I think it's even worse

from folks who aren't as busy.

466

:

So before the show started, Angus and I

were talking about this concept of, you

467

:

know, there's an old quote that says,

"Ideology increases in direct proportion

468

:

to one's distance from the problem."

469

:

And what I'm finding worldwide as I

go to Europe and I go to elsewhere

470

:

the folks that are in the mix right

now are incredibly pragmatic, and

471

:

the ones that are farthest from

the problem are often sitting

472

:

around talking about their culture.

473

:

And the culture is code for I

don't like this change stuff.

474

:

I don't like this new stuff.

475

:

I wanna go back to the way I'm

comfortable with right or wrong.

476

:

And so I don't know if that resonates at

all, Angus, but that's, that's certainly

477

:

what I'm experiencing right now worldwide.

478

:

Angus: What I think is important here is

going back to this idea of antifragility.

479

:

What we know is that your narrative

extends both to your past and your future.

480

:

And that's for you as an

individual, but also as a team.

481

:

And so if you aspire to have

antifragility, what you want is you

482

:

wanna have an integrated past, which

you get through this AAR process that

483

:

Matt and Preston are talking about,

where you all come together, you surface

484

:

the stories of your experiences, and

then you bond those into a single

485

:

narrative that you all agree on.

486

:

So you get that integrated past which

gives you this overarching momentum,

487

:

sense of purpose, and sense of why.

488

:

But then that allows you to be

open and flexible in your future.

489

:

Because you've got that integrated

past, that's giving you a momentum.

490

:

So you can think of it as a stream coming

down a mountain, and that stream, because

491

:

of its momentum coming down the mountain,

has this overall sense of direction.

492

:

So when it hits a boulder, it can flex

around that boulder, but then it goes

493

:

right back to its original channel.

494

:

And so what the old guys alone miss, and

what the new guys alone miss, is that

495

:

narrative is not just a single thing.

496

:

So a lot of times you get into

conflict in organizations, people

497

:

are like, "Oh, it's gotta be this

story, it's gotta be that story."

498

:

It's like, no, we do have to

agree about the story of our past,

499

:

because that happened, right?

500

:

We've all got to get together and

say, "This is where we came from and

501

:

here's how we came together," right?

502

:

That's what we have to agree on.

503

:

But the story of the future

can be open, can be flexible.

504

:

So as long as we have that agreement

over the past and what happened, right?

505

:

And we don't have to say

that we liked what happened.

506

:

You know, to Matt's point, we can agree

that there's a delta between what happened

507

:

and what we wish had happened, right?

508

:

But you do h- have to kind of

agree on what happened, right?

509

:

Then you're all on the same page.

510

:

But then you can be open and

flexible about the future because

511

:

you've got that shared bond.

512

:

And that way if one of you goes left

or another one of you goes right,

513

:

you'll still have that common trust

from before, so you can get back

514

:

together again, after those divergences.

515

:

And so I think that's really

a crucial thing for me.

516

:

I see this all the time in teams, and

frankly, I also see a lot in relationships

517

:

where people feel like they have to have

the same narrative- of the future, right?

518

:

Or it's not gonna work.

519

:

The future is unknown.

520

:

It's great to have a lot of possible

narratives about the future.

521

:

It's great to have that openness.

522

:

What you need to have a shared narrative

about is what you guys saw together

523

:

and experienced together in the past.

524

:

Preston: So we're right now in

September and says, "We wanna

525

:

book something in January."

526

:

10 years ago I would've been like,

"That's a ridiculous concept to me.

527

:

I have no idea what's

gonna happen in January."

528

:

And so it's taken me this long to be

like, no, that's a very reasonable

529

:

adult thing to do, Preston.

530

:

Let's plan some things out.

531

:

And so it's interesting, right?

532

:

Like, depending on who you

are and where you come from.

533

:

And then, you know, just to bring us

back to sort of where we started, because

534

:

I, I think if you're listening you're

like, "So what does this actually mean?"

535

:

So when Angus kind of laid out after

action reviews, you know, it was what

536

:

was the plan or expectations, what

actually happened, what was the delta,

537

:

and then what can we learn from that?

538

:

And the big emphasis here when Angus

was talking about how we've sort

539

:

of differentiated the emphasis,

is that we're really saying that

540

:

the most important thing right off

the bat is what actually happened?

541

:

And I don't mean what actually

happened factually, I mean what

542

:

was everybody's lived experience?

543

:

I need everyone to articulate their lived

experience, because Angus can be across

544

:

the field and I could have a, a belief

about what Angus was doing as I was

545

:

watching him, and it was me watching him.

546

:

But until I hear Angus say, "Oh,

the reason I went that way was

547

:

this, 'cause it, there, I couldn't

see the thing around the corner.

548

:

I couldn't see the bear that was

approaching from the other side."

549

:

I just saw Angus running away and

I was like, "Oh, well, Angus."

550

:

And so- I think what we're saying is

that as a community, the first step needs

551

:

to be a true understanding, a shared

understanding of what everybody's lived

552

:

experience was, th- experiences was.

553

:

That doesn't suggest you agree with it.

554

:

It doesn't suggest you agree with

the decisions or that you like

555

:

the, or you like the outcome.

556

:

Not the point at all.

557

:

Just a collective shared agreement

that everyone understands what

558

:

everyone else understands.

559

:

Yeah?

560

:

Yeah.

561

:

And, and so- Like- Yeah, Angus

562

:

Angus: whether or not Preston

agrees that I saw a bear or that

563

:

I should have run from the bear,

564

:

Preston agrees that Angus

thought he saw a bear.

565

:

Yeah.

566

:

And that Angus thought that he

needed to run from the bear.

567

:

Preston: Yeah.

568

:

Angus: And, the simplest way to

do this, as I've seen teams do

569

:

this, is you just put together a timeline.

570

:

Say, "The mission started at 8:00 AM and

it ended at:

571

:

What did everyone see at 8:00 AM?

572

:

Okay?

573

:

What did everyone see at 8:05?

574

:

Okay, and everybody starts to put their

experiences, just on this timeline.

575

:

And then when you've built that timeline,

you can step back from it and you can

576

:

say, "Well, what Angus thought he saw

was this, and what Preston thought he saw

577

:

was this, and what Matt experienced was

this," and so on and so forth, you know?

578

:

And then you've got that collective

experience there marked out in that way,

579

:

and we can all accept this is true because

this is how everybody experienced the

580

:

story, and you get that all out there.

581

:

And what you find is when you

go through that step, a lot

582

:

of conflicts just evaporate.

583

:

Preston: Yeah, they do.

584

:

Angus: They just evaporate, and you end

up having far less disagreements than

585

:

you might have thought, even if there

are disagreements or dissonances there.

586

:

Preston: Yeah.

587

:

And Matt, how's this tracking for

you, having done this now a number

588

:

of times with different teams?

589

:

Is this tracking with what your lived

experience was of running these?

590

:

Matt: We originally, before we had this,

we looked at the three Ps: performance,

591

:

preparation/planning, and perception,

which is the, did we screw up, did we see

592

:

something different than someone else saw

that's caused to make an action, or did

593

:

we just not pr- plan or prepare for this?

594

:

So I'm at, I wanna say conservatively

probably 500 iterations of this post.

595

:

Most of the time it's just, it's

fairly, uneventful, things that are

596

:

being worked through after a search

warrant or arrest warrant service

597

:

that a SWAT team would normally do.

598

:

But what we've found is that precisely

that the resolving the ambiguity

599

:

between someone's perception and another

pers- perception of what occurred-

600

:

Leaves nothing left for any resentment

or any phone calls after the AAR.

601

:

We resolve the ambiguity right there in

the moment, and guys leave out of there.

602

:

So then what happens is the

community event what we stole from

603

:

FDNY, everyone goes to breakfast.

604

:

One of the, the running jokes

is that SWAT actually stands

605

:

for sausage, waffles, and toast.

606

:

And that the meal afterwards is if

the AAR was successful, is now bonding

607

:

and then and continue the narrative.

608

:

If the AAR was unsuccessful, and

they're not always successful maybe

609

:

there was something harboring,

then we use that to resolve the

610

:

remaining ambiguity that, that's left.

611

:

But to Angus' point, it's so rare

nowadays that Anything was left.

612

:

Preston: There are some things I've

started telling people when we talk

613

:

about new hires, 'cause we're talking

a lot these days with my teams about

614

:

attrition, especially around enablers

who are being more and more utilized, but

615

:

we're seeing a higher, higher attrition.

616

:

And one of the things I'll ask them

is, tell me the first 90 minutes of

617

:

their, their experience on your team.

618

:

They've n- they've never

worked there before.

619

:

Tell me the first 90 minutes and I'll

probably tell your culture, right?

620

:

And if it's, it's, "Here's your

keys, there's your desk, don't bother

621

:

anyone," then that's your culture and

they're probably gonna leave, right?

622

:

And when they say, "Well,

what should we do instead?"

623

:

And I was like just do what every

grandmother in the world does."

624

:

So it doesn't matter if you're in Russia,

in Israel, in Africa, if you walk up to

625

:

a grandmother's house, any grandmother's

house, they're gonna greet you at the

626

:

door as long as you're not a crazy person.

627

:

They're gonna ask you how your trip

was, they're gonna feed you, they're

628

:

gonna give you a beverage, and they're

gonna ask you about your family.

629

:

And that's not a terrible thing, right?

630

:

If every grandmother in the world does

this, there's probably some truth to

631

:

that, and maybe we should do that as well.

632

:

And so there's something to be said

about why the FDNY, like, eats together.

633

:

And what's really fascinating worldwide

right now is, for very good reasons,

634

:

the next generation is drinking less.

635

:

That's not a terrible thing at all.

636

:

But what it does is it takes away

an opportunity d- to be in a group

637

:

environment where there's a social

lubricant to let down vulnerabilities,

638

:

especially with men, to say some

things that need to get said.

639

:

So if you're not finding another

mechanism other than the pub to create

640

:

an environment where those things

can be said, they don't get said, and

641

:

that's really bad for the long-term

health of any team or community.

642

:

And so, what teams are starting

to do is a lot like what Matt's

643

:

talked about, is finding ways

for everybody to eat together.

644

:

And breakfast is one of those

very disarming kinds of things.

645

:

Super hard to be angry

dude over waffles, right?

646

:

It's like wearing feetie pajamas.

647

:

It just, it's disarming.

648

:

You can't get super serious.

649

:

I believe that all world leaders

should be we- required to wear

650

:

feetie pajamas because it's hard

to declare a war in feetie pajamas.

651

:

No one will take you seriously.

652

:

They're like, "Isn't he cute?"

653

:

So anyway, um, I think it's…

654

:

Does that, I mean, thoughts on that?

655

:

Angus: Fundamentally, this whole

thing about grandma asking you

656

:

about your family, what she's

asking about is your origin story.

657

:

Where you came from, your why.

658

:

And, and I think that is the most

important thing when you're bonding,

659

:

bringing on a new team member is

first of all you want to say to

660

:

them, "What is your origin story?

661

:

What brought you here?

662

:

Who is your family?"

663

:

And then you say, as the

team, "Here's our story.

664

:

Here's our family story.

665

:

Here's where our family came from.

666

:

Let, let us tell you about our history."

667

:

And then that kind of mingling of

those two narratives is what allows

668

:

for that trust to develop and for

those shared narratives to develop.

669

:

And to Preston's point, it is

emotionally challenging to do this.

670

:

I mean, everyone's come to a new

uh, office and, you know, your

671

:

first thing is, "I want to impress

people with how awesome I am.

672

:

I don't want to start being vulnerable

in this place and start telling stories

673

:

about myself and, and so on and so forth.

674

:

But it's the job of the team to create

that atmosphere of trust out of the

675

:

gate to help people relax, to put

them in a position where, they can

676

:

nevertheless start to share openly.

677

:

Preston: We're about to release a paper,

it's going through our review process now,

678

:

on the history of selection and some of

our work on adaptive learning capacity.

679

:

And somebody asked me to write down,

you know, now that I've looked at

680

:

selection of these teams for 20 years,

like, what is the purpose of selection?

681

:

And basically, what…

682

:

If you boil it all down, selection,

much like these introductions

683

:

is a process that is revelatory.

684

:

Which is you are revealing something

about the candidate, but you're also

685

:

revealing something about the candidate to

you, but you're also revealing something

686

:

about the candidate to themselves.

687

:

The first one is do we want them,

second one is can I do this.

688

:

And then also you're revealing your

culture to that candidate, which is do I

689

:

want to join this motorcycle gang, right?

690

:

And so it revel- i- it's meant to be

revelatory and so is onboarding, so

691

:

is narratives, meant to be revelatory.

692

:

That doesn't suggest that it's

weakening, and that's often the mistake

693

:

that we make, is that we think that

to be revelatory is to be weakening.

694

:

All we're asking is who are

you, and then you're telling us.

695

:

If that is vulnerable to you, that's

a different conversation, right?

696

:

Like, if you're afraid to just tell people

who you are, then that's, especially

697

:

in this work, that's problematic

in some, some really deep ways.

698

:

Matt, as you've done various permutations

of this, what are some of the other

699

:

things that you've come to learn?

700

:

Matt: The whole event

took less than two hours.

701

:

And our narrative the morning we spent

together just making meaning and telling

702

:

the fastest story was well over three

hours that, that were consumed by getting

703

:

everyone to speak, by following the

ground rules, by resolving ambiguity.

704

:

One of the guys who ended up ultimately

becoming my second in command there and

705

:

has now since taken over that team and

is doing great things with it, he told

706

:

me at the end of it, he walked in with

11 questions, 11 distinct questions

707

:

he had got, and he left with one, and

it was the one profound question of

708

:

why weren't we utilized that we used

to springboard our growth into the

709

:

team that we knew we could become.

710

:

But the idea that the AAR far eclipsed

the actual amount of the event,

711

:

at least at the making meaning.

712

:

We didn't get into structural or, or any

other of the mechanisms that needed to

713

:

get changed and evolved and adapted the

traditional AAR, hey, three things went

714

:

well, three things we need to change

type stuff that we discarded years ago.

715

:

We just making meaning and telling the

story and resolving ambiguity took, you

716

:

know, 150% of what the actual event took.

717

:

So I thought that was remarkable,

and we found the same things that

718

:

sometimes the AARs done properly

will significantly run longer than

719

:

the actual operation itself did,

especially in the line of work I'm in.

720

:

A lot of times arresting bad guys

and, and searching houses is, can

721

:

often take between 10 and, and

60 minutes, if things go well.

722

:

And your AAR may, may match that in

length if you're really resolving that.

723

:

But there's a couple things

that- I learned from you and

724

:

that I learned by doing this.

725

:

The first one is that what you

classically say, people look at

726

:

what you do, then not what you say.

727

:

So we kind of weaponize that in

that I arrange them into groups, not

728

:

that they're necessarily organically

involved with- within the cohort "Hey,

729

:

I'm on Alpha team," or, "I'm on Blue

team," or, "I'm on this element."

730

:

But who are you physically

proximate to on the operation?

731

:

So if you were part of the group that

cleared the house, you stand together.

732

:

If you were the part that was outside

the house dealing with people that were

733

:

under our control or taken into our

custody or containing the problem to

734

:

ensure the bad guy didn't run away, you're

gonna be physically proximate with those

735

:

people independent of your allegiances

to a sub-element within the team.

736

:

Because what I need to happen is I need

to be able to watch the reactions of the

737

:

small group to what you're saying, because

that's where I'm gonna find the ambiguity.

738

:

And so that was the one of the most

powerful things is that group them by

739

:

l- like items by, by proximity on the

operation so that when one of them,

740

:

usually the informal or formal leader

is telling the story, as soon as the

741

:

team turns and looks at him and provides

some ambiguity or some sort of reaction,

742

:

I know that there's something that

occurred there we need to talk about.

743

:

And that allows us to to probe and

ask the following question, as you say

744

:

seek to gain a better understanding

of what that reaction was related to.

745

:

And then a lot of it's handing off, too.

746

:

The team leader, in order to spark these

things, oftentimes is going to talk a

747

:

little bit more than is comfortable, and

we know from past AR experiences that

748

:

becomes prescriptive to some degree.

749

:

Angus talked about how the, you know,

the organizational leader is providing

750

:

feedback to you as how you did and

you have to avoid that in the AR.

751

:

So we wanna hand it off to the people

that were in that element at that

752

:

friction point, and ideally, we've done

our homework from after the event before

753

:

we start the AR in that ten-minute

window to identify who those key people

754

:

are that I need to hand it off to.

755

:

And it's gonna be uncomfortable the first

couple times that they speak in the group,

756

:

even in a trusted team, if they're not

in a formal position of leadership to

757

:

get them to start sharing what happened.

758

:

But it's absolutely critical that you

can hand that AR off and that that team

759

:

leader becomes what you were to us that

day, which was the MC of the story.

760

:

You weren't participatory in the

event, but as things came up, you

761

:

discussed the DR 五 model, you discussed

a lot of the MCTI principles that

762

:

we've come to incorporate in our

organization when the juncture made

763

:

sense, when we plugged that in.

764

:

And I watched, Dr.

765

:

Johnson as well do the same thing.

766

:

Zab does a great job, a- and

Angus is doing it on this call of

767

:

grabbing the neuroscience, grabbing

the reason, and plugging that in.

768

:

And as a team leader, if you're able

to pass that, the actual narrative

769

:

itself to the team members, you

can find opportunities to build in

770

:

the organizational understanding

by providing larger level concepts

771

:

and tenets that we can tie back to.

772

:

So the big one though is that concept

of the grouping likes and listening,

773

:

watching, and just being detached enough

to watch the whole time so you know

774

:

when the allergic reaction occurs, and

you can probe that allergic reaction.

775

:

There is occasionally, especially

in tight-knit sub-elements, a desire

776

:

to take this question offline.

777

:

"Oh, we'll, we'll take it…

778

:

we'll resolve this afterwards," or,

"We'll take them aside afterwards."

779

:

And sometimes I let that

happen and sometimes I don't.

780

:

It really depends on the

nature of the infraction.

781

:

It depends on the tribal penalty for

the grievance that occurred and the

782

:

larger impact of the organization.

783

:

But at a bare minimum, the AAR, by doing

it that way, has exposed that there was

784

:

something that needs to be resolved, and

I can potentially circle back to it after

785

:

the team has had a chance to enact their

own cultural intervention if you will.

786

:

Preston: Yeah, and the thing I really

want to drive everyone's attention to

787

:

here is you know, there's a lot we've

learned from children of alcoholics

788

:

and children of dysfunctional families,

and sometimes a tribe can be like that.

789

:

And one of the things you don't

want to allow or to fester is

790

:

shame or unhealthy secrets.

791

:

And so oftentimes when I said before

that the story is more than the story,

792

:

much like poetry, much like movies,

much like song lyrics, is that the

793

:

story is being told in the gaps as well.

794

:

It's being told in the body language,

in the tone, in the timbre, and

795

:

the volume, and the cadence.

796

:

And the job of a leader

sometimes is to name things.

797

:

You don't have to fix the

thing, but you have to name it

798

:

because everyone can see it, but

everyone's afraid to talk about it.

799

:

So you need the leader, the tribal elder,

to be like, "It looks like Jones is

800

:

having a little bit of trouble right now.

801

:

Do you want to say what that is?"

802

:

Or, "It looks like, Jones' team's having

a bit of allergic reaction to that.

803

:

Well, can someone explain

to me what's going on?"

804

:

And if they say, "We'd rather

not talk about it," that's when I

805

:

will usually become the other guy.

806

:

And I was like, "And I would like

to have not had this event happen,

807

:

but here we are, so now I need

you to start talking about it."

808

:

I sometimes have to be that guy because

I have to be the person who takes on the

809

:

cultural discomfort about this thing,

and I have to be the one that's like,

810

:

"Yeah, Mom has a drinking problem.

811

:

She's not just tired."

812

:

Like, we actually have to have the

hard conversation about the hard thing.

813

:

I'll be the one that says it out

loud, but then all of us are gonna

814

:

have a conversation about it.

815

:

Because everyone knows,

we're all thinking it, right?

816

:

And but by not talking about it,

we perpetuate shame and secrecy

817

:

and guilt, and all these other

things that will kill teams.

818

:

And so I'm a big believer, Matt,

in being able to just, even if

819

:

I'm not the person, like you said,

they're gonna handle it in private.

820

:

That's entirely appropriate sometimes.

821

:

But I will be the person that names it.

822

:

I will be the thing

that, that says, "Hey."

823

:

So that rumors don't happen, that other

things don't happen, I'll be say, "Hey

824

:

Squad A tell me what's going on right now.

825

:

And if you dodge it the Preston train

will start moving towards you at

826

:

velocity and nobody will like that.

827

:

So it's gonna be a lot easier for

everybody if we just get this conversation

828

:

moving, and we can move past it."

829

:

Is that…

830

:

angus, you wanna, anything on that?

831

:

Angus: Yeah.

832

:

Well, first of all, I mean, Preston,

what you're doing by naming the problem,

833

:

what you're doing in the case of

massing is you're naming the ambiguity.

834

:

Preston: Yeah.

835

:

Angus: You're naming the ambiguity,

and when that happens then is all of a

836

:

sudden it becomes the team's problem.

837

:

Because before that, everyone

had it in their own minds.

838

:

They're like, "Is this just my problem?

839

:

Am I the only person who saw that?"

840

:

But when you put it out in public,

you name it, then all of a sudden

841

:

the team owns the problem, and that's

how you start to fix it, right?

842

:

It becomes that collective thing.

843

:

And, and in terms of what Matt was

saying before, what I love about

844

:

this exercise of clustering people

geographically is essentially what

845

:

you're saying is, "I'm grouping you

based on your narrative competence,

846

:

not on your narrative allegiance."

847

:

In other words, if you guys happen to

be part of the door kickers, right,

848

:

you've all got your allegiance to

your little door-kicking team, right?

849

:

Whereas if you're part of the other teams,

right, you got your allegiance there.

850

:

I'm gonna break up those allegiance

networks, and your competence

851

:

is where you were, because

where you were is what you saw.

852

:

So your ability to tell the story

is based on your physical location.

853

:

So I'm gonna prioritize narrative

competence over narrative allegiance.

854

:

And then finally, this piece about

it sometimes takes longer for

855

:

the AAR from the actual event.

856

:

It should always take longer for the AAR.

857

:

Why?

858

:

Because you had 10 different

people experiencing the two hours.

859

:

So that's 20 hours right there, right?

860

:

You know?

861

:

So I mean, in general, AARs should almost

always take longer unless everybody

862

:

totally agrees from the get-go, and you

can't figure out if everybody agrees

863

:

from the get-go until everybody speaks.

864

:

So in general, if your AARs are

going faster than the event, that

865

:

might be a sign that you're not

doing the hard work and surfacing

866

:

enough conflict and ambiguity.

867

:

Preston: Over the years, whenever I get

called into other kinds of incidents

868

:

where there's a team has gone sideways,

100% of the time the team knew about it.

869

:

100% of the time, the team knew the signs

of a couple of bad actors that were doing

870

:

some stuff, but we didn't talk about it

out loud, and everyone kind of shaded over

871

:

it or covered down on it or made excuses.

872

:

And that kills teams.

873

:

It kills teams.

874

:

And I've seen it over and over again.

875

:

And so part of a leader's job

isn't necessarily to always

876

:

fix it, but it is to name it.

877

:

It's to make sure that, you know,

sunlight is the best sanitizer, right?

878

:

No, like, everything's gonna be known.

879

:

We don't have to like it, right?

880

:

Like Bob's constantly,

he's not wearing pants.

881

:

We can all see that.

882

:

We need Bob to start wearing pants.

883

:

Us not talking about it is

not making it better, okay?

884

:

So that's the kind of thing where

it really does matter because never

885

:

forget that almost all MCTs are

NCO, non-commissioned officer led,

886

:

meaning that it's the sled dogs,

it's the diggers that run the team.

887

:

And if they don't hold each other

accountable, then that's what will

888

:

kill a team quicker than anything else.

889

:

Because if you're expecting the officers

or the chiefs or, or the people in charge

890

:

to rescue you, you've already lost it.

891

:

You've already lost what your job is.

892

:

Your job is to be the person solving

the problems, to be the rescuer.

893

:

If you put yourself in a situation

you need to be rescued, it's over.

894

:

If somebody asks me, "What should we do?"

895

:

Close the team down.

896

:

Because if they've lost their

understanding that they have to rescue

897

:

themselves, and they're waiting to be

rescued, they're no longer useful against

898

:

the mission set they were created for.

899

:

Full stop.

900

:

I'm ruthless about this.

901

:

Solve your own problems.

902

:

Don't expect other people to solve them.

903

:

You're the folks at the

very edge of things.

904

:

I can't be having, conversations

where like, "Well, we were

905

:

just hoping somebody would…"

906

:

Stop.

907

:

What?

908

:

God, the zombies and aliens come,

I need you to sort that out.

909

:

I don't need you to be

like, "Is this a good time?"

910

:

No.

911

:

And so, I'm gonna go with Angus, and

then Matt, you can have the final

912

:

word, and then I'll wrap it up.

913

:

But as you think about this process

and the years that have followed,

914

:

what other thoughts or, or epiphanies

have, have arise- risen for you on

915

:

this subject of narrative inquiry

or after-action reviews, Angus?

916

:

Angus: Well, I've had the chance to

see this run in a bunch of different

917

:

organizations since we ran it, and those

organizations have been hospitals, those

918

:

organizations have been businesses, and

those organizations have also, I've been

919

:

inside a couple sort of special forces

AARs where there have been fatalities.

920

:

And the thing I would say is that it

is really hard to tell the true story.

921

:

So if you get into an AAR and everything

you're saying is easy, you might

922

:

need to dig a little bit deeper.

923

:

You know, you might need to

feel that point of friction

924

:

that thing that is a little bit

uncomfortable to say in the room.

925

:

And it's the job of the leaders

to create the opportunity for that

926

:

conversation, and to then shut up Like

as a leader, your job is not to be

927

:

talking, it's to be creating trust.

928

:

And I think when I see AARs go

successfully, it's because leaders

929

:

are doing what Preston and Matt have

described, which is set the conditions

930

:

for those honest conversations,

and then stepping back, allowing

931

:

those conversations to happen, and

intervening only to pull moments of

932

:

conflict or tension or ambiguity to

the surface, so that the team can

933

:

then start to go deeper themselves.

934

:

Preston: Thank you.

935

:

Any advice that you would

give to anyone on Monday to do

936

:

things a little bit differently?

937

:

Angus: I think the main thing is,

is to focus on getting the story

938

:

as opposed to learning lessons.

939

:

Preston: Yeah.

940

:

Angus: So what happens is, is the human

mind, the moment that, you come out of

941

:

a mission, your brain runs its own AAR.

942

:

It just does.

943

:

That's known technically as

counterfactual thinking, for my

944

:

neuroscience nerds out there.

945

:

Your brain basically goes through and

is like, "Here's what I think happened.

946

:

Here's what I think should

have happened instead.

947

:

Here's what I would change."

948

:

And then it does that privately.

949

:

And then what's gonna happen is, is, you

know, you're gonna, carry that sense with

950

:

you unless it's challenged and opened up.

951

:

And so what you gotta do is you've got

to get the team together, realize that

952

:

everyone is forming these narratives,

that the first inclination of people when

953

:

they form a narrative is to judge other

people's narratives as wrong, because

954

:

other people's narratives force you to

break your narrative and open it up and

955

:

make it longer and more complicated.

956

:

And so what you've gotta do is you, is

you've got to, create this opportunity

957

:

for people to push through judgment.

958

:

And the way that you do that is

you suspend the lessons learned.

959

:

Everybody, every organization wants to

get better faster, so of course everybody

960

:

wants to jump to the lessons learned.

961

:

Everybody was there, so everybody

thinks they know exactly how

962

:

the operation should have run.

963

:

Everybody thinks they know

exactly what went wrong.

964

:

You don't.

965

:

You actually don't know.

966

:

And, you know, if you do know, if

you actually do know, then for those

967

:

lessons to take root, you still

need to build trust in the team.

968

:

You still need to have everybody

feel like they've heard, they've

969

:

been heard, 'cause that's the only

way that you get the behavioral

970

:

buy-in and the behavioral change.

971

:

So the number one tip really is slow

the process down, have everybody speak.

972

:

Have everybody tell the full story.

973

:

Focus on talking about what

happened, and then just allow

974

:

the lessons learned to emerge

organically from that after the fact.

975

:

Preston: Thank you very much.

976

:

Matt, how about you?

977

:

What are some things that have

really come to you, and then what

978

:

advice might you give for doing

something different on Monday?

979

:

Matt: So I find it interesting one thing

we haven't talked about and it's specific

980

:

to the mission critical space though.

981

:

And you brought up the concept of enablers

or direct support personnel or people

982

:

that are attached hereto or adjacent to.

983

:

In our case, I refer to that as the team

of teams because really it is small teams

984

:

that have, you know, unique session.

985

:

All of us are in service to a

greater organizational outcome and

986

:

some teams seem like they seem to

have more priority when the reality

987

:

is every part of it is critical.

988

:

And so we opened up our AARs to

everybody that was participating

989

:

in the operation and that was hard.

990

:

That took a ton of confidence and a

lot of vulnerability at the same time

991

:

To be willing to tackle what comes out

of everyone's mouth and then also to

992

:

be willing to confront those problems.

993

:

And so to Angus's point, it wasn't

easy and it didn't happen overnight,

994

:

but the more we iterated, the

more we got an understanding.

995

:

And then every time I tell these

guys here in my current team that

996

:

every op is an opportunity, right?

997

:

So we have an opportunity to test systems.

998

:

We have an opportunity to to refine

how we do business, to showcase our

999

:

talents, to do all these things.

:

00:51:26,652 --> 00:51:31,232

And every AAR is an opportunity to get

better at doing the AAR process and

:

00:51:31,232 --> 00:51:35,192

then understand that we are in a people

business and that everything we do in

:

00:51:35,192 --> 00:51:38,519

service to people and we do as people,

as part of this team has more fragility

:

00:51:39,121 --> 00:51:43,841

than we ever think at sometimes as far as

people's emotional exposure to this stuff.

:

00:51:44,261 --> 00:51:48,261

So when we do these AARs especially if

we're in critical communication mode

:

00:51:48,261 --> 00:51:51,481

where we're calling people out and

we're, we're making those uncomfortable

:

00:51:51,481 --> 00:51:56,661

moments we often have to buffer that

with in the downtime with that offset.

:

00:51:56,671 --> 00:52:02,711

So we talked about it, but the idea

that we would have a hard AAR and then

:

00:52:02,711 --> 00:52:07,481

go have breakfast is we're repairing

the micro tears of the event that

:

00:52:07,481 --> 00:52:10,011

allows us to then do the next AAR.

:

00:52:10,021 --> 00:52:13,231

Because if the first bloodletting

AAR you have is super negative

:

00:52:13,241 --> 00:52:16,931

and remains negative the idea that

you'll be able to sustain those

:

00:52:17,111 --> 00:52:19,041

is, is probably not realistic.

:

00:52:19,151 --> 00:52:22,871

Or the idea that you'll be able to

hand these things off to subordinate

:

00:52:22,881 --> 00:52:26,371

leaders to be involved in the various

parts of this is not realistic.

:

00:52:26,450 --> 00:52:30,172

So I strongly recommend that have the

confidence, have the courage, have

:

00:52:30,172 --> 00:52:33,162

the vulnerability to conduct these

things and then make sure you've

:

00:52:33,172 --> 00:52:37,102

got a mechanism to do the recovery

and the repair of the micro things.

:

00:52:37,102 --> 00:52:41,642

It's a hard workout followed by a recovery

modality is the analogy that I like to use

:

00:52:41,942 --> 00:52:47,712

so that we do have the ability to do this

again with the same level of interrogation

:

00:52:47,712 --> 00:52:49,212

and the same level of honesty.

:

00:52:49,652 --> 00:52:55,452

Because the first hard AAR will test a

lot of your moral courage, your ability

:

00:52:55,452 --> 00:52:59,062

to have a courageous conversation the

organizational resiliency that you

:

00:52:59,062 --> 00:53:01,272

thought you had it all comes into play.

:

00:53:01,312 --> 00:53:04,502

And so you have to be very deliberate

about the entire life cycle of

:

00:53:04,542 --> 00:53:10,102

pre-operational operation AAR re- in that

recovery reset mode because each people

:

00:53:10,102 --> 00:53:14,540

will internalize some of the things that

occur during the AAR slightly differently,

:

00:53:14,590 --> 00:53:20,030

enough that they may need some, they need

some assistance after, after it's over,

:

00:53:20,030 --> 00:53:21,559

and some validation after it's all over.

:

00:53:21,620 --> 00:53:24,291

We wanna make sure that we're

intentional about that process as well.

:

00:53:24,291 --> 00:53:28,031

And to your point, Preston, when the op

tempo and the, the amount of stuff coming

:

00:53:28,031 --> 00:53:31,461

in goes high, we leave those wounds

open, they, they're prone to infection.

:

00:53:31,471 --> 00:53:38,911

So there is a moment that the postmortem

has to then also come with something,

:

00:53:38,931 --> 00:53:44,011

some sort of healing salve or some sort

of soothing event that the team is able to

:

00:53:44,011 --> 00:53:47,361

then continue to invest in this process.

:

00:53:48,001 --> 00:53:49,531

Preston: Well, gentlemen, I

wanna thank you very much.

:

00:53:49,531 --> 00:53:54,191

My only closing thought on this is to

the leaders out there that here's my

:

00:53:54,191 --> 00:53:57,221

assumptions, that you have good hearts and

you're trying to do the right thing, but

:

00:53:57,241 --> 00:54:00,871

here's what I want you to think about as

you leave here and leave this conversation

:

00:54:00,871 --> 00:54:02,031

that we've been having is this.

:

00:54:02,361 --> 00:54:05,981

Is you ever read a book or seen a movie

and you're pretty confident that that's

:

00:54:05,981 --> 00:54:08,271

what the movie or book was about, and

then you start talking to your friend

:

00:54:08,271 --> 00:54:10,471

who's also read the book or seen the

movie, and all of a sudden you're

:

00:54:10,471 --> 00:54:12,291

like, "Wait, that's what it was about?"

:

00:54:12,571 --> 00:54:15,971

And it's one of those things where if

you have a conversation with somebody and

:

00:54:15,971 --> 00:54:20,541

you figure out that Lord of the Rings may

really have been about Sam, or Star Wars

:

00:54:20,541 --> 00:54:22,071

may really have been about the droids.

:

00:54:22,381 --> 00:54:25,671

It's that by providing that

perspective allows you to see or

:

00:54:25,671 --> 00:54:28,071

think about something, a story,

in a fundamentally new way.

:

00:54:28,551 --> 00:54:31,871

If you walk into an AAR with a

preconceived notion of what people

:

00:54:31,871 --> 00:54:34,681

need to learn, the data points

they need to get, not only won't

:

00:54:34,681 --> 00:54:36,261

it work, they won't remember them.

:

00:54:36,731 --> 00:54:42,101

If, however, you take the time to help

make meaning of those experiences and then

:

00:54:42,141 --> 00:54:46,891

help shape that narrative in a way that's

strength-based, that's building protective

:

00:54:46,891 --> 00:54:51,131

factors, that's building the team for the

next hard thing, then, the lessons will

:

00:54:51,131 --> 00:54:52,681

get learned and they will get better.

:

00:54:52,731 --> 00:54:55,751

But you have to trust in your team,

and you have to trust in the process.

:

00:54:55,851 --> 00:54:57,751

'Cause it's one of those things

where too much control will

:

00:54:57,751 --> 00:54:59,761

actually lead to less control.

:

00:55:00,191 --> 00:55:01,978

And that's sometimes difficult to hear.

:

00:55:02,188 --> 00:55:03,037

I wanna thank you both.

:

00:55:03,037 --> 00:55:06,582

I know you're both very busy in

different ways, and so thanks again

:

00:55:06,602 --> 00:55:09,912

for supporting the Teamcast, and

thanks everybody else for coming along.

:

00:55:10,773 --> 00:55:12,533

Thank you again for

listening to our Teamcast.

:

00:55:13,073 --> 00:55:15,743

If you found value in this discussion,

the best way to support our work

:

00:55:15,753 --> 00:55:18,073

and ensure you don't miss future

episodes is to subscribe and

:

00:55:18,073 --> 00:55:19,303

leave us a quick rating or review.

:

00:55:19,633 --> 00:55:22,563

That'll help us reach more people

who need to hear these conversations.

:

00:55:22,903 --> 00:55:26,123

For more on Mission Critical Team

Institute, including all of our episodes

:

00:55:26,123 --> 00:55:28,443

and show notes, visit missioncti.com.

:

00:55:28,503 --> 00:55:30,133

You can also connect with us on LinkedIn.

:

00:55:30,903 --> 00:55:32,973

And if you're a mission critical

team looking to learn more about

:

00:55:32,973 --> 00:55:35,783

our programs, reach out directly

to our Director of Operations, Ms.

:

00:55:35,783 --> 00:55:38,963

Janese Jackson, at janese@missioncti.com.

:

00:55:39,223 --> 00:55:43,393

That's J-A-N-E-S-E@missioncti.com.

:

00:55:43,723 --> 00:55:45,363

Until next time, thanks.

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About the Podcast

Teamcast
Mission Critical Team Institute Teamcast
Dr. Preston Cline, Dr. Dan Dworkis, Dr. Art Finch and Harry Moffit of the Mission Critical Team Institute share research and explore the questions vexing the most elite teams in the world, from Special Operations soldiers to Firefighters, from Trauma Medics to Professional Athletes, and from Astronauts to Tactical Law Enforcement.

About your hosts

Coleman Ruiz

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Co-Founder and Director of Performance, Mission Critical Team Institute

Preston Cline

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Co-founder and Director of Research and Education at the Mission Critical Team Institute
Senior Fellow, Center for Leadership and Change Management, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania